Training beyond the Schutzhund field. - Page 1

 The "Titles" thread brought up some good questions. I,d like to hear from people who expose there dogs to more then what the Trial field needs.


In my opinion there is a difference between a Schutzhund trained dog and 1 trained solely for the "sport" of Schutzhund.

 Example:

 MY dogs have all been or will be worked on the bite suit multiple times with other then arm bites, They have been worked at nite in the dark,in unfamiliar buildings, different surfaces, Vertical wall,old style catch,s, Stress more then required for a Sch title. The litter of pup,s I have right now have already been exposed to multiple gun shot,s several times. As far as tracking I,ve got hard enough time been consistent for the trial field let alone any thing else. Hidden sleeve,s No Sleeve ect...

I believe it makes a much better dog in the long run.

 I will continue to Title my dogs in Schutzhund.
  

 
  

 

I train my dogs in SchH but other things as well.  My first dog was not really cut out for protection work but has titles in Rally, Agility, SDA obedience (very similar to SchH), therapy certifications, conformation, temperament certification, herding instinct.  My current Schutzhund dog is also titled in SDA tracking, obedience, and protection and we do a lot of protection on a bitesuit, suspicion work, various scenarios, and plenty of control work (there is always the greeting and re-greeting!!).  He is trained and titled in agility, trained in rally-obedience through the Excellent level (did not have $$ to enter trials this season b/c I was sick for 2 months and we bought a house).  He will earn his first lure coursing title next month and possibly dock diving as well.  We've also started Flyball.  He's been herding multiple times and shows promis there but b/c of time/money we will not pursue formal lessons and trialing until we drop something else.  Oh and he also is a UKC Champion and SG at 13 months (conformation).  In a few weeks my "Schutzhund dogs" will be visiting my husband's second grade class for a fun trick demo and demo on how to approach dogs (ask permission to pet, etc).  Oh and my dogs are all first and foremost my companions.  They live in the house, all get along with each other, and they all travel with me.  I know my dogs and I know how to train in several venues and have them compliment each other.  My dog will work on a sleeve and a suit in the same session, same round.  But, we go quite above and beyond just protection stuff and do agility, obedience, rally, herding, flyball, dock diving, lure coursing, and conformation.

My personal opinion is that a schutzhund dog should be a schutzhund dog.  I respect the people who love the sport side of it.....but that isnt for me.  I think schutzhund is a great way to train and test the gsd.  I just dont like the fact that many of the dogs are just trained in the trial routine.....and arnt really "trained" in protection.  Not that they couldnt have a serious side to them.......that is what I would like to see. 

 

dutss,

I agree with everything you say but would like to add that it seems as though some breeders are breeding for the atributes that make a good SchH dog and I mean that in a tunnle vision bad way, as opposed to a dog being breed with the goal a an overall good working dog. 

We train our dogs for SCH 2-3 times a week. Plus we have a helper come to our home to work the dogs on a suit / more real protection work.
Our dogs go for herding classes which they love & we enjoy but too much $ to go for titles also. 
They also do therapy work with disable or high risk children, & make regular visits at our local senior center.
All of our dogs take turns going to the office with my husband. There they attend board meetings, travel to project sites, guard equipment / truck when needed etc. 
I use to work my dogs in SAR for many years, do to health reasons I can't meet those demands any longer, but all are trained to track for SCH, air scent & trail.
They mainly trail to find our lost chickens or our neighbors lost live stock. I'm considering doing agility with them also if I can keep up with my dogs.
A couple of the dogs are in training as service dogs as well since I've become medically disabled.
2 of my females are SCH1 ready, can bite a hidden sleeve, fully SAR trained for wilderness searches, does therapy work, in training for service work also. 
My other younger dogs are at various levels as them as well. I'm hoping they will be titled this summer, but my health issues normally causes an issue with traveling / scheduling in the past.
 

Bob, I think it all depends on your goals, time and experience. Someone new to the sport has enough on their plate with training for the sport alone. I know I do, with work and personal things, I am just happy having fun being able to do "something" with my dog. I'm not the most competitive person out there, but I don't like crap training or doing anything half-ass. I try to do my best with what I'm given, and gosh darn it, I'm smart enough, good enough, and people like me! I can't say that I like a total sport dog though. Not that I hate it, but watching a dog play frisbee with the helper just doesn't do it for me. If you could throw tracking and obedience into something similar to PSA, I'd be all over it. But there are stupid little things I like about the SchH C routine that I like and aren't really thought or talked about. I like the control. I like stupid stuff like the call out, focused fussing while you know he has the corner of his eye on the helper, watching the dog contain himself in the down in anticipation of that MF moving, watching a dog do all 6 blinds even though he knows that MF is in 6, staying in a platz while you tell the helper how much of an idiot he is, etc, etc.-----------------

I do all my dogs can do. Keeps me interested and it keeps it fun. I am not a good enough handler for hight comeptition (obedience) but I am still able to get 90ties out of my dogs or mid 80ties under very tough judges.

Schutzhund is what people make it. SOme argue that shutzhund titles are nothing I argue they are important as I lknow you put your hands on a dog and did something, or attempted something. But I look at the dog in a long run. so title is important to me as it shows also the willingness of the handler to actually get their behinds off the couch and teach their pooch at least a "stupid" routine.

I like to work my dogs and I do whateverI feel is important to work on at perticular time (suit, muzzle, searches, man tracking... or schutzhund tracking. I focus on working the dogs... maybe one day I will focus more on competing when I will be a better handler.)

I am a purist when it comes to Schutzhund. I do not intentionaly expose my competition prospect/dog to anything that I feel would detract from their performance on the trial field until they are retired.

That's righ folks: no bite suit, no hidden sleeve. If someone breaks into my house, I'll shoot them. No need to bother my dog. Further, I do not take chances of getting my dog injured doing something that is not part of the trial routine or our everyday life, their conditioning, such as climbing over stacks of barrels, car windows, verticle walls, cat walks, ladders, stuff we always do with police K9's, but have no place for on the Schutzhund trial field.

I'd feel MIGHTY stupid if my dog caught a stifle going over a verticle wall, was injured, FINISHED for life... just to see if he/she'd do it.

The last place I want to be standing with my dog is next to the exam table in the vet's office. Why take unnecessary chances? Its not like the dog will thank you for it later.

Actually you are opposite of a schutzhud purist.  The person who is a schutzhund purist does the other training to have the dogs working properly in a trial....not just for points.   You dont have to take any extra risks to produce a good schutzhund dog compared to a schutzhund trial dog. No need to have the dog jump through a window or climb a verticl wall to make sure the dog is working as a protection dog.  No need for suit work.  Suit work is great after the dog percieves the protection with the right frame of mind for targeting maybe some confidence building  and getting it ready for the street.....but the dogs head should be in the right place before it sees the suit.  Many of the dogs working suits are just sleeve suckers.  It shouldnt matter what equiptment the helper is wearing.....the dog should be fighting the man.  You can put a muzzle on your dog and there is probalby less chance of it getting hurt than field work....letting it fly down the field for prey bites.

I worked a french ring mal a few weeks ago.  The guys says...oh yeah he is for real.  Used a sleeve....first time the dog had been on a sleeve....everything else had been suit work.  yep, put the sleeve on the ground and the dog turns his back on me wanting the sleeve....I could have come up behind the dog and given him a massage.  Another guy who wants to be a k9 handler...sends a guy down teh field in a suit top....shooting a blank pistol....his dog goes takes a bite and the handler is very happy.  Gets the dog out later comes to the field....sees a sleeve on the ground....completely ignores me and just pulls and barks at the sleeve.   The mal owner and the wanna be k9 guys were upset wth thier dogs.....I told them its not the dogs fault....it is their lack of understanding and poor training.

It is just much easier training a dog in prey than through aggression....easier to control....get points...

People talk about working that "balanced" dog.....seems only when the dog comes out of the gate working in aggression.....when the dog comes out as a game....happens to bark nice.....they are less likely to work it in the opposite direction to "balance" it out.

I am sure your dogs were all very nice and balanced out just right.  Not picking a fight....