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by all4gsd on 12 April 2010 - 21:04
There are a lot of information out there regarding linebreeding, inbreeding or outcrossing. But the information is almost always defining the differences between them but is very limited (if at all) providing opinions on where which one begins and where which one ends. I need help understanding the difference between distant line breeding vs. out crossing. For example if a breeding of one dog (for example va1 vegas which has no common ancestory in first 5 generations) to another provides only a 5-5 linebreeding number (and only a single dog listed as 5-5), are we talking about almost outcrossing here or could this still provide some comfort in breeding similar bloodlines?
Thanks for the feedback in advance!
Thanks for the feedback in advance!
by Ibrahim on 12 April 2010 - 21:04
I think the 5-5 distant linebreeding is still a linebreeding though not heavy, it is not outcrossing. Outcrossing is when there is no common ancestors in first 5 generations at least, this is the common conception. Some do not consider outcrossing is true unless the dogs do not have common ancestors in further than 5 generations. Some claim that term outcross is only true when you outcross inbetween two seperate breeds or two fully seperate lines like GSD show and GSD working.
Ibrahim
Ibrahim
by all4gsd on 13 April 2010 - 03:04
What kind of results could one expect from a breeding like that? Could there be still some uniformity among puppies? And/or could this provide any quality puppies (assuming both the sire and dam are quality dogs)?
by Ibrahim on 14 April 2010 - 10:04
I am posting again because I did not see any of the more knowledgable doing it.
What I learned from many previous threads on related subjects is this:
Linebreeding and outcrossing are both of benefit when done correctly by brreders who know the dogs and their pedigrees, their pros and cons. Breeders linebreed to maintain the type and their own line or to establish one. They outcross when needed to strengthen a trait lost or weakened in their line. After outcrossing they again linebreed to maintain the type and continue their line. Usually the common practice by breeders is to outcross within the same type (show or working) not inbetween show and work, those who are against outcrossing the show with work claim that there is no point in it and no benefit as one will not get better than what he begins with and further generations give even worse results. Anyway most important in breeding is the dogs themselves (the individuals), if they are good you will most probably get good or acceptable results whether linebreeding or outcrossing within the same type.
From previous related threads I came to the conclusion that breeding should not be taken lightly and decisions on certain and specific matings should be researched thoroughly and best is when you know your dogs and the dogs behind them personally. For myself as I lack the personal knowledge of the dogs behind mine as they are far away in other countries, if I ever decide to breed them I will seek advice from their origional breeders if they will be willing to help, but again even if they help I will be just like a blind being walked around by others without any confidence which is a risk when not used to be blind.
Ibrahim
What I learned from many previous threads on related subjects is this:
Linebreeding and outcrossing are both of benefit when done correctly by brreders who know the dogs and their pedigrees, their pros and cons. Breeders linebreed to maintain the type and their own line or to establish one. They outcross when needed to strengthen a trait lost or weakened in their line. After outcrossing they again linebreed to maintain the type and continue their line. Usually the common practice by breeders is to outcross within the same type (show or working) not inbetween show and work, those who are against outcrossing the show with work claim that there is no point in it and no benefit as one will not get better than what he begins with and further generations give even worse results. Anyway most important in breeding is the dogs themselves (the individuals), if they are good you will most probably get good or acceptable results whether linebreeding or outcrossing within the same type.
From previous related threads I came to the conclusion that breeding should not be taken lightly and decisions on certain and specific matings should be researched thoroughly and best is when you know your dogs and the dogs behind them personally. For myself as I lack the personal knowledge of the dogs behind mine as they are far away in other countries, if I ever decide to breed them I will seek advice from their origional breeders if they will be willing to help, but again even if they help I will be just like a blind being walked around by others without any confidence which is a risk when not used to be blind.
Ibrahim
by Bob McKown on 14 April 2010 - 14:04
Ibrahim,All4gsd :
This is a breeding that I plan on doing I own both these dogs and i,m figuring this is the kind of breeding you are asking about
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=509123&modir=577883
Am I correct?
This is a breeding that I plan on doing I own both these dogs and i,m figuring this is the kind of breeding you are asking about
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=509123&modir=577883
Am I correct?
by Ibrahim on 14 April 2010 - 15:04
Bob,
These two dogs look excellent, their pedigrees have many extraordinary dogs. If things go out well I think you will have puppies I wish I could have one of them. Best of luck
Ibrahim
These two dogs look excellent, their pedigrees have many extraordinary dogs. If things go out well I think you will have puppies I wish I could have one of them. Best of luck
Ibrahim
by all4gsd on 15 April 2010 - 05:04
Bob - Nice breeding - Actually what I was referring to is a bit different. All Im trying to find out is if you end up having "only one dog in line bredding which is 5-5", is this almost outcrossing, or could we be expecting some uniformity out of the puppies still assuming the stud is a good producer?
by Rik on 15 April 2010 - 11:04
There are so many variables that it is impossible to predict. Is the dog in the 5th. generation also an outcross or is he himself heavily line bred or inbred.
What one should be able to see in 5 generations is if the dog seemed to be able to reproduce certain traits that follow the line. I know this is very vague, but unless one is the actual breeder of the 5 generations or has very good knowledege of them, there is very little chance of predicting anything.
While I do think that long time breeders of a "line" know what traits they can expect to see in their dogs, breeding cannot be reduced to a formula. If this was possible, then there would be a Vegas or a Javir (or whatever dog one favors) in every litter.
Best,
Rik
by Mystere on 15 April 2010 - 17:04
My understanding is that anything with no common antecedents in six generations is an out-cross.
Outcrossing, in theory at least, would produce less uniformity in a litter. Outcrossing is also expected to result in "hybrid vigor." That is theory.
My first schutzhund dog was a bitch that was an outcross--half show and half working. I believe that the litter had seven puppies in it. Of those, three did clearly resemble each other (my bitch and two brothers) physically and in working ability, high drive, stable temperaments, intelligence. Four (including my bitch) seemed to have the mother's scenting ability--she became a seizure alert dog. My bitch often "alerted" me that I was coming down with "something" 3-5 days before I felt like I was coming down with a bug. Two of her brothers and one sister also exhibited a similar trait with respect to their "pack members." One of the two brothers was trained in French Ring and impressed the Ringers, who generally preferred Mals, because of his drive. Physically, three ( including my bitch and the brother in Ring sport) had the show line sire's structure and R &B coloring. They seemed to have taken the mother's working abilities and drive.
The other puppies, AFAIK, went to pet homes. I know at least the other bitch puppies were rather low drive, no dominance, and "nervier." All the pups were retrieving fools--again after the mother, as the sire wouldn't have chased a rabbit that thumped him on the nose.
Outcrossing, in theory at least, would produce less uniformity in a litter. Outcrossing is also expected to result in "hybrid vigor." That is theory.
My first schutzhund dog was a bitch that was an outcross--half show and half working. I believe that the litter had seven puppies in it. Of those, three did clearly resemble each other (my bitch and two brothers) physically and in working ability, high drive, stable temperaments, intelligence. Four (including my bitch) seemed to have the mother's scenting ability--she became a seizure alert dog. My bitch often "alerted" me that I was coming down with "something" 3-5 days before I felt like I was coming down with a bug. Two of her brothers and one sister also exhibited a similar trait with respect to their "pack members." One of the two brothers was trained in French Ring and impressed the Ringers, who generally preferred Mals, because of his drive. Physically, three ( including my bitch and the brother in Ring sport) had the show line sire's structure and R &B coloring. They seemed to have taken the mother's working abilities and drive.
The other puppies, AFAIK, went to pet homes. I know at least the other bitch puppies were rather low drive, no dominance, and "nervier." All the pups were retrieving fools--again after the mother, as the sire wouldn't have chased a rabbit that thumped him on the nose.
by darylehret on 15 April 2010 - 18:04
Outcrossing, in theory at least, would produce less uniformity in a litter. Outcrossing is also expected to result in "hybrid vigor." That is theory.minor notes in regard to that...
1. Outcrossing of two different linebred lines is what produces hybrid vigor, thereafter each outcross reducing hybrid vigor, and outbreeding depression begins to occur.
2. An outcrossing of such (two linebred lines) would actually be very uniform, but then less uniform in the following generations, and even greatly so if outcrossed.
A 5-5 linebreeding has 6.25% of it's genes from one specific ancestor (immutable fact, with the exception of maternal/paternal dna, and the rare occasion of mutation). It's expected that half of those genes (3.125%) "might" be representative of that dog's phenotype, or even more if the specific ancestor is linebred itself, or perhaps less if the specific ancestor's descendents through to your dog do not cary the said phenotypes.
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