What are the odds that some of my pups will be LC's - Page 1

Hi everyone,

 My girl Virgo just had her first litter of pups, I have already discovered that like her sire, she did not inherit the black gene, her mom has the black gene.

Virgo's mom does not have the LC gene, Virgo's sire is a LC, I bred her with a dog that carries the LC gene, what are the odds for some of these puppies to turn out coated?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=485240&modir=520610 

Time will tell if your answers are right, 

    Thanks!
           Paula

hiya Paula.i have a bitch ,who also like Virgo,her dam doesnt carry the L/Cgene.i mated this bitch to a male who has produced longcoats in litters and my resulting litter was 6.3males and 3 females comprising of 4 normal coated offspring and 2 longcoats,so i make my litter one third longcoat,but it could vary as mother nature does strange things.my foundation bitch,s mum was a long coat,mated her to short coated male who also carried L/Cgene.she had 11 and of those 3 were long coats(approx.25%)it really could be any combinations if both the dam and sire carry the L/C gene.carole spelman Rheinmeister gsds.

Hi noddi,
 
Virgo's great grand-mother bred to Virgo's sire, 12 pups all regular coats.

Virgo's mom used the same sire as Virgo just used, and had no LC's, Virgo's grand-ma used the same sire and no LC's,

this will be interesting!

yes very interesting.from what you have just stated i,d bet on no long coats.lets wait and see when they,re a bit older.

A dog who has a coated parent, HAS to carry the coat gene. 
Progeny of a coat carrier to a dog that doesn't carry the coat gene, has a 50-50 chance of carrying the coat gene.  Only if bred to a known coat carrier or a coat AND producing a coat, can a progeny of a carrier x noncarrier be definitely determined to carry coat.
But Mother Nature is tricky with the games she plays with genetic odds.  Its equally possible for two coat carriers or for a coat carrier bred to a coated dog, to produce an entire litter of normal coated pups, or conversely produce an entire litter of longcoats, or anything inbetween.
Some dogs who carry a particular gene, seem to for some reason I don't know,  vary in the frequency with which they give that gene to their progeny.  I've seen some black carriers bred to blacks, where a black puppy rarely resulted.  I've seen the opposite too.  I've seen a number of situations where dogs who were a sable and a black and tan, both carrying black, produced large litters of all sables except for one solid black, where the odds would have favored at least one black and tan puppy.

Each puppy in each litter can be compared to an individual spin of a roulette wheel, which is why you can even have multiple litters born from dogs that carry a specific trait such as coat or black, yet not get any pups with that recessive trait even in situations such as where there are 3 litters from the same parents, both carriers, and 25 puppies total born...enough pups to expect the trait to show itself at least once!!!

All of which makes it very tough to be totally sure of anything except the fact that Nature always plays by her own rules, not by human rules!!!

There were longcoated dogs in the breed from the time the breed was founded, Horand had at least one white longcoated grandparent.  A recessive gene can travel hidden for infinite generations until whenever, if ever two dogs with the same recessive manage to produce that recessive for the eyes to see.  At least one very famous heavily used sire who appeared to be a normal coat, was in fact, a longcoat who was kept carefully trimmed. There probably are and have been many others as well, in GSD history. 

There are also multiple genes that affect coats, whether long or short, factors such as quantity of outer and undercoat, texture of outer and undercoat, etc.  I've seen longcoats that looked like normal coats except for ear fringe.  A normal coat may look almost longcoated except for the absence of ear fringe.  A GSD coat may be short and hard and close to the body or it may be plush with heavy undercoat to the point to where the body coat between this kind of normal coat and the least obvious longcoat types, may be very similar.

Longcoats usually cannot be determined until a puppy is at least four weeks old or even more typically at 5 to 7 weeks of age.  I've heard of people who could tell coated pups at birth, but nobody has ever been able to produce a photo and point out the differences between a long and normal coat at birth.  In my personal experience, at ages of between 4 and 6 weeks,  fringes around the edges and on the back of ears, longer fluffier hair on the head between the ears and stop, longer muzzle hair above the nose, longer hair on the backs of forelegs, have been the best clues to which pups in a litter were likely to be coats.  Ear fringe especially was a reasonably consistent reliable indicator.  Some coats didn't show the longer fluffier hair on muzzle or forehead.  Some normal coats may show more leg fringe as young puppies.

In the end, coat length and quantity still isn't as important as structural soundness, genetic soundness and propensity for good health, strength, and longevity, intelligence, correct temperament, and will

well written GSDGENETICS.clear and concise explaniation.i applaud your eloquent english.i also find that the face on a long coated pup is different to a normal coated one,looks like a teddy bear.

The LC gene is a simple recessive, like the black color gene.  In order for it to be expressed the puppies must inherit two copies of the gene.

If your dog's mother does not carry the LC gene, but was bred to a male that defintely is coated, then all the puppies - including your own - will inherit one copy of the normal coat gene and one copy of the LC gene.  All these puppies will appear normal coated because the gene is recessive.  They are all LC "carriers".

If your "carrier" bitch was mated to a carrier male, then statistics would call for 25% of the puppies to be homozygous normal (two copies of the normal coat gene), 50% of the puppies to be LC carriers (one normal + one LC gene), and 25% of the puppies to be true LC (two copies of the LC gene).

The ACTUAL percentage of pups that turn out coated is a crap shoot because any individual litter will NOT follow the general rules of statistics that govern the population as a whole.

Example:  I had a dog out of a litter whose sire was sable with black recessive bred to another sable with black recessive.  Statisitically speaking, only 25% of the pups were expected to be black, but instead 5 out of 8 pups were black.  The statistical probability of this occuring is about 1%, and yet it happened.  Go figure!

Yvette

You are right about that noddi,

as they grow I should be checking the tops of their noses, cause the LC's don't have the exaggerated dip on the top,
it does look more square like a bear's nose!

Yvette the source for your statistic please?  Sounds very interesting and I would like to read more thanks.

Terri

Yvette, 
      you make an interesting point, and of course all the pups are carriers if at least one parent is a LC cause they inherit one gene from each parent, but it's only the luck of the draw that you'll see the LC gene expressed....

Thanks!

Paula