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by ForFoxyRoxy on 28 October 2009 - 20:10
By the way. Thought it would be good for you to know how far behind she lags. Her shoulder should be even with my leg, she lags back only 4-6 inches. So, we are not talking a foot behind me.
by ForFoxyRoxy on 28 October 2009 - 20:10
Liesjers
Thanks for your specifics. I think you may have hit on something. She may be anticipating something like a left turn or a down. She is one of those dogs that wants to be in control. She has a hard time giving that up. Maybe that is where this is steming from. I am trying to make her think this is a teamwork project, to get her to be proud of what she is accomplishing. Doing more complicated tasks that she has to think about.
I have been heading in the direction you did. I have trained her not to jump up on me. However, she loves to do it, so I have been releasing her and letting her do it. She gets excited about it. Never runs around in circles... but it is something. Trying to over the top on enthusiasm and energy. It is the only time I let her do it, so it is a big treat.
I have been walking faster and with a super confident energy.
Someone told me that she flakes out around people because she knows I won't correct her the way I would in private. What do you think about that. Just like in the ring, you can't correct in the ring, she knows that and is sloppy???
Thanks for your specifics. I think you may have hit on something. She may be anticipating something like a left turn or a down. She is one of those dogs that wants to be in control. She has a hard time giving that up. Maybe that is where this is steming from. I am trying to make her think this is a teamwork project, to get her to be proud of what she is accomplishing. Doing more complicated tasks that she has to think about.
I have been heading in the direction you did. I have trained her not to jump up on me. However, she loves to do it, so I have been releasing her and letting her do it. She gets excited about it. Never runs around in circles... but it is something. Trying to over the top on enthusiasm and energy. It is the only time I let her do it, so it is a big treat.
I have been walking faster and with a super confident energy.
Someone told me that she flakes out around people because she knows I won't correct her the way I would in private. What do you think about that. Just like in the ring, you can't correct in the ring, she knows that and is sloppy???
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 28 October 2009 - 21:10
To the original poster:
Stop being a drill sargeant and try to relax and have more fun while working on heel.The dog is picking up on your stifness and act appropriately.
Keep it short, animated and to the point, then teach the dog that school is over and you can play more now. It's a bridge command.
"I won't correct her the way I would in private. " -- Why not? Correct her EXACTLY likeyou would do in private in front of PETA president, if need be, and you will get what you seek. Do it in a calm, leader confident, neutral way. Like you would pick up a piece of a wrapper on a carpet while passign by in the house. Lean, pick up and siscard then move on - neutral leader is the key here.
"someone is standing there watching us, she looses it. Like she doesn't like the pressure.... could that be???" Again, if she is focused on you and you figure out a way to truly interact and keep her focus on you in the hell allthe time while you are heeling, it doesn't matter who is standing where, they'll just become background to the dog and you the focus of attention. That doesn't happen overnight and it requires training, marker training and yo being more upbeat and interesting instead of being a calm, focused boring librarian demanding something. That's as interesintg to the dog as watching curling while high on pot.
"did not make it fun from 6 months to 1 1/2 or so. Trying to go back and make it fun now. She doesn't believe me." -- NOW, you are onto something here. As you just realized, it's pretty much harder to correctthe past mistakes, then to train fresh. Once you make her BELIEVE you BOTh are having fun and she voluntarily wants to do it and is offering behaviors, you won't move forward.
It's up to you to figure out how to infuse more fun into the training. Once you figure tha out and the dog enjoys it, the rest will take care of itself.
Hope that helps.
Stop being a drill sargeant and try to relax and have more fun while working on heel.The dog is picking up on your stifness and act appropriately.
Keep it short, animated and to the point, then teach the dog that school is over and you can play more now. It's a bridge command.
"I won't correct her the way I would in private. " -- Why not? Correct her EXACTLY likeyou would do in private in front of PETA president, if need be, and you will get what you seek. Do it in a calm, leader confident, neutral way. Like you would pick up a piece of a wrapper on a carpet while passign by in the house. Lean, pick up and siscard then move on - neutral leader is the key here.
"someone is standing there watching us, she looses it. Like she doesn't like the pressure.... could that be???" Again, if she is focused on you and you figure out a way to truly interact and keep her focus on you in the hell allthe time while you are heeling, it doesn't matter who is standing where, they'll just become background to the dog and you the focus of attention. That doesn't happen overnight and it requires training, marker training and yo being more upbeat and interesting instead of being a calm, focused boring librarian demanding something. That's as interesintg to the dog as watching curling while high on pot.
"did not make it fun from 6 months to 1 1/2 or so. Trying to go back and make it fun now. She doesn't believe me." -- NOW, you are onto something here. As you just realized, it's pretty much harder to correctthe past mistakes, then to train fresh. Once you make her BELIEVE you BOTh are having fun and she voluntarily wants to do it and is offering behaviors, you won't move forward.
It's up to you to figure out how to infuse more fun into the training. Once you figure tha out and the dog enjoys it, the rest will take care of itself.
Hope that helps.
by Ryanhaus on 29 October 2009 - 00:10
Adi, very well said.
I do AKC obedience with my dogs & they have to do long sits & downs, the ScH trainer said that was like watching paint
dry, I thought that was pretty funny, I love learning to fuss, and learning how to prepare for ScH, you're on the move, the dog doesn't have time to become bored.
Fun is the key word, you can't fool a GSD.
I do AKC obedience with my dogs & they have to do long sits & downs, the ScH trainer said that was like watching paint
dry, I thought that was pretty funny, I love learning to fuss, and learning how to prepare for ScH, you're on the move, the dog doesn't have time to become bored.
Fun is the key word, you can't fool a GSD.by Vixen on 29 October 2009 - 02:10
Hello Jim & Foxy,
I will have to keep this direct and straightforward otherwise it will be too long .... There is so much to say that text cannot cope with!!
Dogs share Pack Mentality. Creating stable, consistent and reliable leadership, develops trust between the pack/family members. I work on gaining respect first, assertive authority with encouraging approval. This does not mean brutish bullying or 'pretty please' thank you's!
Whenever there is a problem, you can be sure this will actually be a symptom, and the real problem will glean from the home!
When treats or toys are used to hype or encourage the dog to perform, that is what you will get - a performance. You are asking the dog to do something for what you are offering. Let me say that it is not my intention to inflame anyones training, because treat training has become 'the way'. Sadly however, it has also distracted away from the very way of thinking dog!
One of the exercises that we do at the Clubs, that visitors enjoy seeing, is the "Watch Me". The Handlers have their dog sitting to heel, tell them to "Watch", then the Handler actually looks away. I stand to the side of the dog and call his/her name several times, and the dog does not look away, because the dog is obeying the command of the most important person in the Pack. (I had a discussion a couple of years ago with a Dog Trainer who runs a Club, plus she is a Judge too at Obedience Shows, and she said that was not possible! When I stood up to show her with one of mine, she walked off. To me that was the saddest response, because she did not WANT to see what she considered not possible.
I loathe the description 'Pet Training', as I personally regard it as 'cop out'. Settling for "that will do nicely thank you". Training dogs is training dogs! Bringing out the best in the Owners, helping them to understand and train their dogs not just at the Club but how and what at home. As they grow in importance (from a canine view), their dog responds.
Hello Foxy,
When you have introduced training with treats etc., and then wean them off, ....BUT onto what???? You have trained the dog for his/her own self gain!!! The dog working with you for a few minutes/15 or 30 minutes formal training is not asking for the moon!
Foxy, may I quote your statement - •"Worked her to hard, had too high of expectations based on my other dogs & did not make it fun from 6 months to 1 1/2 or so. Trying to go back and make it fun now. She doesn't believe me".
There is so much that could be responded to, but text is limiting! This statement however, is quite common, you wanted the standard of your other dogs, but forgot to guide and appreciate her efforts. Now again, I am not talking hyping, playing, fun and games etc. She does not "believe you", she at present does not trust you! (A very small example is the Formal Recall, it is easy to want to get it exactly right, sitting straight in front of you, and instructed as IF she KNOWS what is expected. But she does not. She might even get praise the very moment she completes the Recall - too late!!!
........ The very moment she gets up to move towards you - "Yea, good", not with a trying to persuade her voice, they can see right through that, but with an uplifting "What a cracker you are" tone. Soft and warm. When she reaches you, forget the SIT, you can work on that later, (piece it together), for the
I will have to keep this direct and straightforward otherwise it will be too long .... There is so much to say that text cannot cope with!!
Dogs share Pack Mentality. Creating stable, consistent and reliable leadership, develops trust between the pack/family members. I work on gaining respect first, assertive authority with encouraging approval. This does not mean brutish bullying or 'pretty please' thank you's!
Whenever there is a problem, you can be sure this will actually be a symptom, and the real problem will glean from the home!
When treats or toys are used to hype or encourage the dog to perform, that is what you will get - a performance. You are asking the dog to do something for what you are offering. Let me say that it is not my intention to inflame anyones training, because treat training has become 'the way'. Sadly however, it has also distracted away from the very way of thinking dog!
One of the exercises that we do at the Clubs, that visitors enjoy seeing, is the "Watch Me". The Handlers have their dog sitting to heel, tell them to "Watch", then the Handler actually looks away. I stand to the side of the dog and call his/her name several times, and the dog does not look away, because the dog is obeying the command of the most important person in the Pack. (I had a discussion a couple of years ago with a Dog Trainer who runs a Club, plus she is a Judge too at Obedience Shows, and she said that was not possible! When I stood up to show her with one of mine, she walked off. To me that was the saddest response, because she did not WANT to see what she considered not possible.
I loathe the description 'Pet Training', as I personally regard it as 'cop out'. Settling for "that will do nicely thank you". Training dogs is training dogs! Bringing out the best in the Owners, helping them to understand and train their dogs not just at the Club but how and what at home. As they grow in importance (from a canine view), their dog responds.
Hello Foxy,
When you have introduced training with treats etc., and then wean them off, ....BUT onto what???? You have trained the dog for his/her own self gain!!! The dog working with you for a few minutes/15 or 30 minutes formal training is not asking for the moon!
Foxy, may I quote your statement - •"Worked her to hard, had too high of expectations based on my other dogs & did not make it fun from 6 months to 1 1/2 or so. Trying to go back and make it fun now. She doesn't believe me".
There is so much that could be responded to, but text is limiting! This statement however, is quite common, you wanted the standard of your other dogs, but forgot to guide and appreciate her efforts. Now again, I am not talking hyping, playing, fun and games etc. She does not "believe you", she at present does not trust you! (A very small example is the Formal Recall, it is easy to want to get it exactly right, sitting straight in front of you, and instructed as IF she KNOWS what is expected. But she does not. She might even get praise the very moment she completes the Recall - too late!!!
........ The very moment she gets up to move towards you - "Yea, good", not with a trying to persuade her voice, they can see right through that, but with an uplifting "What a cracker you are" tone. Soft and warm. When she reaches you, forget the SIT, you can work on that later, (piece it together), for the
by Vixen on 29 October 2009 - 02:10
Apologies, for two parts.... continued from above...
(piece it together), for the moment just let her feel good at doing something with, and for you.
Foxy, without talking to you, or seeing you both together, it is hard if not impossible to train, but could I suggest, that for the time being, give her a simple exercise, and then with calm pleasure tell her she is so clever. (Not over-exicited, or she will over-look what she has just done for you). Perhaps slowly with a finger under her chin, tickle her gently, and express your approval. Then tell her "OK". No need to jump around like her 'entertainer', this is purely a training/trust exercise that will bring bonding. Exercises are exercises, you need to be interacting with her generally too, otherwise you have a dog that performs but lacks manners or respect. If you are in England, perhaps you would like to give me a call? I will be happy to talk with you about your dog.
So many Training Clubs have photographs, that if analysed, you would not think they were advertising obedience. My aim with the photographs is showing dogs on and off lead calm, relaxed and trusting with equally relaxed confident Owners. There are not many Clubs that also suggest to potential clients to visit with their dog and then go and compare anywhere else! I don't want to 'trap' new clients, I want them to see the differences and choose to return.
By the way, you asked about my Web Site. Look to the left of this Site, scroll down to TRAINER - click into this section, and I am about the 3rd one down, re: Training without Treats, and easy to find as it is United Kingdom. A photo of my three chewing their bones together.
All good wishes and kind regards,
Vixen
(piece it together), for the moment just let her feel good at doing something with, and for you.
Foxy, without talking to you, or seeing you both together, it is hard if not impossible to train, but could I suggest, that for the time being, give her a simple exercise, and then with calm pleasure tell her she is so clever. (Not over-exicited, or she will over-look what she has just done for you). Perhaps slowly with a finger under her chin, tickle her gently, and express your approval. Then tell her "OK". No need to jump around like her 'entertainer', this is purely a training/trust exercise that will bring bonding. Exercises are exercises, you need to be interacting with her generally too, otherwise you have a dog that performs but lacks manners or respect. If you are in England, perhaps you would like to give me a call? I will be happy to talk with you about your dog.
So many Training Clubs have photographs, that if analysed, you would not think they were advertising obedience. My aim with the photographs is showing dogs on and off lead calm, relaxed and trusting with equally relaxed confident Owners. There are not many Clubs that also suggest to potential clients to visit with their dog and then go and compare anywhere else! I don't want to 'trap' new clients, I want them to see the differences and choose to return.
By the way, you asked about my Web Site. Look to the left of this Site, scroll down to TRAINER - click into this section, and I am about the 3rd one down, re: Training without Treats, and easy to find as it is United Kingdom. A photo of my three chewing their bones together.
All good wishes and kind regards,
Vixen
by ForFoxyRoxy on 29 October 2009 - 04:10
Gosh Vixen thanks for all the thought you put into your comments.
What you said about "for the moment just let her feel good at doing something with, and for you." stood out. I've been trying this as of late and really like the response i am getting from her. She really does try, but I get so caught up on the perfection of it that she doesn't feel successful I guess. Thanks for the feedback.
I think I know exactly what to do, I just need to do it a bit everyday consistently. No magic pill, time in the saddle right?
Adi, right on thanks.
by Vixen on 29 October 2009 - 04:10
Foxy, ABSOLUTELY!! Spot on! Like the expression; "Time in the saddle"!!
(Remember as a child when you first start to draw, and show Mum a picture of a house, imagine your feelings if she said; "That's not a proper house, it's wonky and the door is crooked"!!
No, hopefully, she gave you a hug and told you it was lovely.
Let her feel encouraged and proud by you, but be someone who she feels is important in the Pack. So ensure a good balance of encouraging work, but equally good confident, general, firm and fair interaction with her.
Like you said; "Time in the saddle" - plus also keep hold of those reins!!!
All the best,
Vixen
(Remember as a child when you first start to draw, and show Mum a picture of a house, imagine your feelings if she said; "That's not a proper house, it's wonky and the door is crooked"!!
No, hopefully, she gave you a hug and told you it was lovely.
Let her feel encouraged and proud by you, but be someone who she feels is important in the Pack. So ensure a good balance of encouraging work, but equally good confident, general, firm and fair interaction with her.
Like you said; "Time in the saddle" - plus also keep hold of those reins!!!
All the best,
Vixen
by ForFoxyRoxy on 29 October 2009 - 04:10
Vixen,
Ah, I found your website. I really needed to read your website and your comments. I have been training "naturally" for 10 yrs. I agree completely with your philosophy. I think I wanted to try the ball/toy to see if I was missing the boat. It has never felt really right to me. I will never forget taking my Rottie to a seminar, I was the only person there that was not a food trainer. The instructor of the class came up to me at some point and complimented me on the bond I had with my dog. This is what I have always strived from, my dog to want to please me, not get paid with a extraneous reward. Sometimes I feel like I am on a island by myself as every trainer around me is all about the food and clicker.
Not in England,
Cara
Ah, I found your website. I really needed to read your website and your comments. I have been training "naturally" for 10 yrs. I agree completely with your philosophy. I think I wanted to try the ball/toy to see if I was missing the boat. It has never felt really right to me. I will never forget taking my Rottie to a seminar, I was the only person there that was not a food trainer. The instructor of the class came up to me at some point and complimented me on the bond I had with my dog. This is what I have always strived from, my dog to want to please me, not get paid with a extraneous reward. Sometimes I feel like I am on a island by myself as every trainer around me is all about the food and clicker.
Not in England,
Cara
by Vixen on 29 October 2009 - 05:10
Well, if it helps you to feel better it is the same here!! 
Stick to your guns Cara. And thankfully you are not alone!
Vixen
Stick to your guns Cara. And thankfully you are not alone!
Vixen
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