Drive, drive, drive! - Page 1

All this talk about building drive filtered over
to our training group this weekend. Am very
curious as to others outlook, opinions and
actual experience with this subject-so here
goes!

"Can you in fact 'build drive' in a dog?"

By this, I refer to the people that talk about
doing 'drive building' with their puppies/dogs.

It has always been my opinion, as that of my SO's,
that the dog/pup either has drive, or it doesn't.
Obviously that can vary with levels from low to off
the walls, but really, do you think you can 'create'
drive in a pup/dog?

Or do you feel like many of us, you are wasting
valuable time fooling yourself into thinking you
can put more drive into a pup/dog?

Let'er rip!

I think the dog is either born with it or without it.  Think about it like a professional fighter or really any professional athlete for that matter... they were obviously born with a certain skill set that enables them to perform at a high level, but those skills were tuned in order to achieve their level of success.  You know with a 6-7 week old puppy whether or not it has prey/toy/food drive, it's up to you as a handler to enhance and tune those drives into a tool for you both to success. 

I get dogs in for training that the owners swear have "Monster Prey Drive".At 8 weeks they were rag monsters.... The pooches arrive and have zero interest in rags, chasing sticks etc.  Some of these dogs do learn to harness the drive, others never do.  So did they originally have drive and living in a kennel environment knocks it out of them Or did they never have drive to begin?  Those are the questions i would like answers to.


I personally believe that dogs are born with it and it is our job to enhance.  I'm not so sure a trainer is actually "creating drive from nothing" though. 

I think this is a very good topic that is discussed...usually in private...but not in public....Therefore I think sometimes the meaning of words are different to different people...
I think the words of "Drive Building" are mistaken or taken incorrectly...Because you can't build something that's not already there...You can't enhance something that does not innately exist...
So...I think most people's thoughts are correct...Either way you think of it...Because you can't give the dog/puppy something that's not been given by it's genes...
But I also think that you can Develop what a dog already possesses...Just like you Develop anyone's talents or as we put it in dog terms...Drives...
You Develop a Drive by using it....By using it you begin to learn how to use it and therefore those Drives are coming out more and more until you come to a point of which it won't grow anymore...So you've come to a point of maturation...
This seems to be a subject like which comes first...The Chicken or the Egg...Everyone has a view of what's correct...Just like Dog Training...

~Bob~

Charlie Meszaros of  Reeboch K9 had some interesting video's on imprinting, at 6 weeks and building play/prey drive and at 6 weeks imprinting obedience also;  I learned a lot just watching his video's on the subject.  I will try to get the link for you.  But I also feel that some dogs/puppies have more than others and are born with more than others;  BUT you need to build that at a very young age and continue throughout their life and that is whether it is drives, obedience, tracking or any other kind of herding training and whatever you want.  I love a good retrieve and that is part of the imprinting process that was done on these videos also.  More to come.  Nan

Reebach K9 sport;  go to the puppy page and the video's are listed there along with other video's.  Very interesting and informative.

Whatever you want to accomplish, best of luck  Nan

"Building" drive is a bit of a misnomer..
What one does is shape drive.

A dogs are born with drives.. or they wouldn't survive.
It is up to the hnadler/owner/trainer to develop and shape those drives into behaviours that you desire from their dog.

Obviously, (ormaybe not, to some) not all dogs/puppies are at the same level.
It is oftentimes not worth the time and effort to shape and develop the lower level dogs..  especially when the expectations of the handler/trainer is bitework.

Bmartin .. absolutely correct.. the abiliies of the dog .. or lack of abilities is innate . genetic . either the make up is present or it is not .. all that we can do is recognize the gifts , the potentail and nurture them . we can never make a dog what it is not but we can also can repress the dog from using what it's potentail is , too ..
         when people generally talk about building drive... i found that that the phrase / word is a misnomer. what one is really talking about is manipulating the dog's motivation . Or for pet owners decreasiong it.  Dogs, like people .. we all have innate abilities , but even those that posses abilities can become lazy , stifled..     if we could all get rich and have food to eat without going to work..? how many of us would actually go to work ? . same with dogs... some are just eager to always , naturally , without direction , "do " if they have the gift . others will igore the usage their gifts -    just because .       you cannot build drive/instinct / genetics if it doesn't exist. but if it does it can manipulated. And " drive " as i have written a thousand times on the PDB ..is a very very very inadequate word to ulitilize. IMO .. not to with intention of arrogance : - but to emphaisize the seriousness of certain training --- if one has to 'Promote ' the dog to work and working a specific task is important ... then consider different genetics of the dogs even before a dog is purchased. !!
          in life .. you cannot make a dog or a person what it is not [ OT - no wonder the  " leave no kid behind  " teaching philosophy so drasticaaly fails !!].

I agree with DenWolf, you do not BUILD drive but you learn how to shape, cap, and channel drive. When people say they are "building" drive I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they mean they are allowing the dog to express drive and showing the dog where to channel it.

The drive is genetic, however I do believe it can change over time.  For example I have a young working line dog.  I got him at 7 weeks and he was a pick puppy as far as drives for sport and work.  Unlike most "working" type puppies he was super laid back, not a landshark, never once put his teeth on me, very confidence and curious but in a more relaxed way.  He wasn't really interested in chasing, fetching or tugging. I thought I got the dud.  Then about 7 months his prey drive "woke up" and he turned into a very prey dog with a pretty low threshold.  He loads up on his own.  Unlike some dogs where handlers struggle to elevate and cap drive through a long obedience routine, with this dog I have to make myself boring at at times almost mean in order to keep him from getting nusto.  Now that he's starting to mature, we are seeing the first hints of his defense drives and desire to fight.  I believe his balance of drives is genetic but due to his age I can't say exactly what that balance will be, only predict based on siblings and pedigree. 

My job is to tap and cap what is there and try to bring it out as balanced as possible.  I also believe in allowing a dog to work in his primary drive as long as the dog is still under control and can be capped.  If my dog is mainly prey, I work him in prey.  That is where his desire to be there, his speed and power, his full powerful bites and desire to stay in and overpower the person/prey comes from.  When the defense matures, we will tap into that more and more, but I don't believe in taking a primarily prey dog and just trying to only push defense buttons.  The dog is what it is.  If I didn't like it would have gotten another dog.  Similarly my other dog is mostly defense.  You can dance around in front of him waving sleeves in the air and kicking them on the ground all day and if I cut him loose he will go straight for your collar bone, or just stand there if the helper has no presense and is just doing a silly prey dance.  So we work him in defense and bring more and more prey.

Pressure and training with conflict used correctly greatly intensifies drive.  At least it did with my little female.  The results were instant and totally changed her attitude towards work (the traditional motivational training didn't work at all, but she has a very unusual character).

Like him or not, Bart Bellon teaches some very interesting methods to increase and focus drive using lots of control.  People think control kills drive, but used properly it brings much greater speed, power and intensity.

I love that term "shaping " drive.  I think it is a much better term than building drive.  Unless you are talking about teasing a dog during training that builds drive.  But I dont think that is what you meant was it workingdogz?  I believe what you meant by building was taking a dog with low drive and building into a high drive dog?  Did I understand correctly?