showline bred with workingline - Page 6

Quote: “I'm 100% a S/L person. It's what I do and what I like to do. No apoligies to anyone. So far, on this thread, dayrle seems to be the only one who has any idea what he is talking about.” – Rik

How can you say that when you posted earlier you own a Javir daughter? Everyone knows Javir is a working line dog. Do YOU even have any idea of what you’re talking about?

By the way, I’m not trying to make fun of Javir as he is a wonderful working line dog and is one of my favorites to watch too. But I heard Javir was gasping for air by the time he was done with his experimental escapade into the BIG show ring. The German style show ring is very much an endurance exercise and you are only fooling yourself if you crack wise about the showline dogs MERELY & ONLY going around in circles and looking pretty all day. They are definitely the real deal in being able to perform tasks that require endurance from the animal.

Nice post Blackthorn.

 Quote: They are definitely the real deal in being able to perform tasks that require endurance from the animal.

So, besides running in circles, or maybe the iditorod, what are they doing ? I have seen the lame excuse for Sch, so they have been bred to run in circles ?

darylehret and Jeff Oehlsen,
we all know now that you despise showlines and think that they should be eradicated or at the very least be registered as a different breed. Can we now move on, please? Didn't your grandmother teach you that you should keep your mouth shut if you don't have anything good to say? You two managed to kill an otherwise very informative thread for those who have a lot more hindsight in the breed and are not so narrow minded.
darylehret, I usually have a lot of respect for your hypothetical knowledge but your practical experience leaves a bit to be desired. You state yourself that you have never seen a showline jump. So, I need to ask you if you have ever even attended an event like a Schutzhund trial or went to a show? You live in Montana,so you might not have a chance to go outside your area? Do you breed with titled dogs or look for studs outside your kennel to improve your program? Lots of questions can come to mind when looking at your posts and your website(s). You don't need to answer these questions, as it is not on my business and I really don't want to know. I am just trying to make a point that it is unbecoming to be so critical of others and at the same time you yourself are not really up to par on these breeding practices either. I am sure you know the famous glasshouse - don't throw with stones!
Let me ask you a hypothetical question: Why is mixing show and workinglines so different than breeding Czech and workinglines or East German and workinglines together? Answer: From a genetic point of view, there is no difference!!!! All are complete outcrosses, period! It takes a knowledgable breeder to make such outcrosses successfull and then, even more importantly, carefully breed this outcross back into the desired lines (working, show, Czech, East German - whatever you fancy >grin<). Being narrrow minded and only base your program on certain lines or even worse breeders, is just riding on somebody else's success.
And trust me, there are bad dogs in any line - I have seen just about all. The biggest scaredy cat was a Czech puppy who hid from a lawn mower, while my showline puppies just went crazy and wanted to bite the tire. My 12-year old daughter had to help a lady at our vet who could not get her two East German dogs under control who were scared of their own shadows and went completely panicky. The dogs were from a wellknown U.S. based breeder of East German lines. A famous East German stud flunked the bitework at the German Sieger Show, gasp, while a workingline dog could not be bothered to out! My husband handled a well known workingline male for a competitive lady in a resurvey a few years ago, and wow - he was gun shy! I could go on with a few more examples, but I am sure I got my point across - there are bad apples in all lines!
There are plenty of good showline dogs and if people go through the trouble to find them, they should be used to improve breeding programs. The problems i see is the narrowmindedness on all sides and the breeding for extremes - hardness and extreme drives in workinglines and beauty and placements in showlines. Both are poison for our breed!
Darylehret, here is a dog which I bred and placed in the correct home at 8 weeks of age: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/345897.html . Jaeger was not an accident, he followed his father Alex as a working K-9 and now his son Yago vom Silbersee is picking up after him. Please read all his accomplishments and awards under "comments". Jaeger was a showline dog, gasp! And guess what! He could jump the 4 feet easily and climb the wall!
Chris

I am perplexed with what I read. I always thought there was supposed to be one breed standard. Why has people changed things. I remember the good old German dogs in the 60's. They where beautiful dogs and could work all day long.What has gone wrong.
Conie

Chris,

I remember Jaeger and his son Yago. I saw Jaeger both in the show ring and doing bitework and he was impressive. Good dog!

 "Why is mixing show and workinglines so different than breeding Czech and workinglines or East German and workinglines together? Answer: From a genetic point of view, there is no difference!!!!"

Silbersee, I must disagree, but more in principal than in fact, considering the the subject matter of your entire post.  Your dogs are impressive, and the care you take in making responsible breeding decisions is evidenced by what you produce, full well knowing that you believe in "crossing the line" so to speak.  I also agree wholeheartedly with you that "bad apples" can be found everywhere.   That said, I think it would be a mistake to take the criticism of this practice as an afront.   If you cross Czech and DDR dogs, you indeed are outcrossing, but presumably for the traits, to the same end.  If you were to cross a Czech dog with the typical AKC show dog, you then must question your motives, because you are doing no justice to the working line gsd, with the obvious intention of correcting the AKC dog.   In no way is this meant to be a comparison to your litters, just an extreme to make the point.   The mere fact that breeders of show line gsd's are now seeking the genetics of the working line gsd's is an indictment in and of itself.  You prove in your post, that this is a tricky business at best.   For every successful venture at crossing these lines responsibly, there are probablly 50 that are done unsuccessully and irresponsibly. My opinion is that you are the exception. not the rule, and we ought to proceed as such.

Hi Chris do you have any pics of Yago and other brothers?

Sugarbear,
you caught me in somewhat of an embarrassment: I never took AKC lines or American show dogs under consideration and never thought of them at all. I am sorry! These lines do not mean anything to me because they have no titles and for the most part or for some, no health screenings in the background. So, none of these breedings are done with SV breeding regulations in mind!
And I do not take healthy criticism as an afront at all, never! Everybody is entitled to opinions and that is why we have these discussions which are very interesting to me, as long as people stay objective and do not attack anybody or the subject matter with derogatory remarks.
What I had meant with my opinion on mixing different lines to each other (workinglines, Czech, East German, German showlines) is that from a genetical point of view, they are all outcrossings and therefore, not too different in their practices.
As some people know, I have done an outcross myself with my V-rated workingline female and a European VA-rated dog who is a highly sought after stud dog in Germany. And I was really surprised how uniform my 6 T-girls turned out to be. Lots of drive, nice pigment and type. Taiga is in Germany and works in a DVG club, Trixi and Tillie are involved in search & rescue and agility, Taio and Tigerlilly are cherished family companions and I sold the one we kept back a while ago to a great family with twin toddler boys. I would have never parted with Tanja but she was a bit too small for my taste as a breeding female. www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/590116.html I have every intention to try an outcross again but I do think that you have to be careful which breeding partners you choose.
As to your statement that for every successful outcross, there are 50 which were done unsuccessfully and irresponsibly: You can say that for every breeding! Lots of botched ones and irresponsiblities on the breeder's side, especially here in the U.S. where nothing is regulated and we can all be free and do as we please! It is a lot different in most European countries! If you don't believe me, just ask yourself why U.S. shelters are full with unwanted dogs while that is not the case in Germany! I know the answer: Breeding requirements and regulations!
Regardless, we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, it is a free country after all! The most important part is courtesy which makes me stay away from threads discussing breeding practices without titles to prove temperament and working ability - which I do not believe in at all - and worse, unscreened and non-certified (OFA, a-stamp etc.) dogs which I think is a crime and there is absolutely no excuse at all.
Chris

Tantra,
for a photo of Yago, you need to contact his owner Mike Andrel who is the WDA Director of Region 2 www.gsdca-wda.org/wda_new/reg_direc.html .
The two litter brothers were sold to family companion homes at 8 weeks of age, both were long stockcoats.
Chris

"You state yourself that you have never seen a showline jump."

OK, I have to take that back.  There was a breeder of showlines at my former club in Denver, but her dogs did not fit the "archetype" we see in Europe regarding conformation.  I often forgot they were even "showlines" at all, and their jumping ability was fine.

No, I've never attended a "show" for german shepherds.  I've attended a few all-breed dog shows, but never watched a single event at any of them.  I was assisting the reproduction specialist at his booth.  I have no interest in showing, and especially no interest in extreme and unnatural conformation.

If your showline dog can do the work in a worthy fashion, and doesn't look like a total freak, might as well be a workingline dog in my eyes.  It would definitely not be designed for my personal breeding purposes, though I can respect your shortened foresight if that's what you want to build on.

One member of my club had a show/working cross that I kind of liked, well at least I didn't dislike.  I wouldn't want it, in part because of the other portion of it's genetics and how it would introduce a strong element of uncertainty and upset any breeding plan for a few generations at minimum.  The dog wouldn't add anything, but being a Nick H. grandson gave it a little something more than most crosses, I'd imagine.

Yeah, that first generation might give you some glimmer of hope, but don't let it fool you, your grand designs would, without the teeniest doubt in my mind, ultimately go to complete heck afterwards.  It would take a very disciplined number of breeders working together to prove otherwise, a "breeding club" that would more strictly and wisely operate with better efficiency than the SV and it's current standards and misguided opinions about what "acceptable breeding quality" means.  (IOW, a group that isn't financially and politically motivated)

To begin with, finding even two breeders that can agree on much at all is probably more difficult than finding good breeding stock from what remains.  But, even a "part-time/small-portion-of-resources" group of like-minded breeders working cooperatively might meet some common goals.  Showlines aside, the workinglines alone look grim enough already in my perspective, and that's considering only european kennels and practices.  I've said before, and will again now, I wouldn't be attracted to even 1% of workingline breedings in europe.  I'm no crusader for the breed though, I only want my piece of what's left, so you go for it.  I'll try not to be a dream wrecker.