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by Prager on 14 October 2010 - 21:10
To improve a pigmentation and structure and widen genetic pool of WL.
And to improve workability and widen genetic pool of the SL.
When introducing SL into work line it is important to make sure that the SL dog has very good working ethics
AND PRODUCES IT!!!. Than from such breeding select the best pup with high workability and desired traits of SL dog for fututr breeding.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
And to improve workability and widen genetic pool of the SL.
When introducing SL into work line it is important to make sure that the SL dog has very good working ethics
AND PRODUCES IT!!!. Than from such breeding select the best pup with high workability and desired traits of SL dog for fututr breeding.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Red Sable on 14 October 2010 - 23:10
Great story Ibrahim. Great dog!
by novarobin on 14 October 2010 - 23:10
Ibrahim
What would have been the result if the dog had not been tied to a tree? Why the need to tie to the tree?
What would have been the result if the dog had not been tied to a tree? Why the need to tie to the tree?
by Gustav on 15 October 2010 - 00:10
I have a hypothectical question. (I have to be careful because people assume my post are SL bashing and get upset at me...but I try hard to deal in reality) The question.
Suppose the structure that is being promoted as the way to correct structure isn't top working structure based on the breed's legacy, should this be considered "good structure"? Should structure be in line with high physical capability, or should structure be based on asthectic appearance?
Suppose the structure that is being promoted as the way to correct structure isn't top working structure based on the breed's legacy, should this be considered "good structure"? Should structure be in line with high physical capability, or should structure be based on asthectic appearance?
by Prager on 15 October 2010 - 00:10
Physical capability . That is what Max v Stephanitz said.
Beauty of GSD should be derived from his ability to work. It should be beauty that of an athlete.Freely quoted.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by leeshideaway on 15 October 2010 - 02:10
I just went through 21 pages.
Preston,
It's interesting that many have the opinion that working line breeders should try to improve structure instead of breeding for points. (a German judge also told me that)
Felloffher,
In my opinion - after looking around for almost a year (recently) - I came across more working line dogs that are really close to the structure diagram on this site than show line dogs. I guess that's because the judges have strayed from the target - movement while trotting being the main priority. (allowing too much angle or some roach if movement is correct)
Prager,
"To improve a pigmentation and structure and widen genetic pool of WL.
And to improve workability and widen genetic pool of the SL."
Exactly!
Also to select and match a pair for other characteristics that need improving. (depending on the dog)
But this is what someone might do that is interested in improving the breed without respect to with what is popular.
Gustav,
It is my opinion that the standard set by Max based on high physical capability is correct.
All of this has been going on for a long time, the book "Working Dogs" by Humphrey & Warner from the 1930s discusses this very topic.
Preston,
It's interesting that many have the opinion that working line breeders should try to improve structure instead of breeding for points. (a German judge also told me that)
Felloffher,
In my opinion - after looking around for almost a year (recently) - I came across more working line dogs that are really close to the structure diagram on this site than show line dogs. I guess that's because the judges have strayed from the target - movement while trotting being the main priority. (allowing too much angle or some roach if movement is correct)
Prager,
"To improve a pigmentation and structure and widen genetic pool of WL.
And to improve workability and widen genetic pool of the SL."
Exactly!
Also to select and match a pair for other characteristics that need improving. (depending on the dog)
But this is what someone might do that is interested in improving the breed without respect to with what is popular.
Gustav,
It is my opinion that the standard set by Max based on high physical capability is correct.
All of this has been going on for a long time, the book "Working Dogs" by Humphrey & Warner from the 1930s discusses this very topic.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 15 October 2010 - 02:10
Quote: Preston's is, as usual, a voice of clear headed logic.
Or, more likely, his opinion is much closer to yours so he is clear headed and logical.
Quote: Where most of the WL-defenders make it an all or nothing argument in favor of their dog's physical style and forget that the resulting SL/WL cross would be closer in appearance and temperament to WL's than to today's SL dogs.
Since structure is the holy grail of the showlines people, then why bother ? I guess my point is it takes a certain arrogance to just assume that adding the showlines doornob thresholds, and low drive, and crappy structure, and just figure that "this will make everything better".
It is not going to improve anything. You cross a dog with high thresholds with a dog with low thresholds and which wins out ? Answer me that.
Or, more likely, his opinion is much closer to yours so he is clear headed and logical.
Quote: Where most of the WL-defenders make it an all or nothing argument in favor of their dog's physical style and forget that the resulting SL/WL cross would be closer in appearance and temperament to WL's than to today's SL dogs.
Since structure is the holy grail of the showlines people, then why bother ? I guess my point is it takes a certain arrogance to just assume that adding the showlines doornob thresholds, and low drive, and crappy structure, and just figure that "this will make everything better".
It is not going to improve anything. You cross a dog with high thresholds with a dog with low thresholds and which wins out ? Answer me that.
by leeshideaway on 15 October 2010 - 03:10
Here is a link to a cross I had in the 90s.
This dog had the same drive or better drives than my new w/l female. (related lines)
She went for the sleeve right off the bat and didn't need extra training steps most people do with pups.
Plus she was more secure and safer to be in all circumstances - kids - other dogs - etc.
She had no health issues like my last s/l male.
Her mother was 4 - 5 Mutz von der Pelztierfarm 3 - 4 Jonny von der Rheinhalle, but I think Jmm had much to do with who she was.
I had to fill in the missing dogs in her pedigree so I did not have title info or pictures for a few dogs.
At the time, my dogs were for personal protection (PPDs).
www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/681549.html
If I had this dog today, I would be competing with her and have some movies for Jeff.
This dog had the same drive or better drives than my new w/l female. (related lines)
She went for the sleeve right off the bat and didn't need extra training steps most people do with pups.
Plus she was more secure and safer to be in all circumstances - kids - other dogs - etc.
She had no health issues like my last s/l male.
Her mother was 4 - 5 Mutz von der Pelztierfarm 3 - 4 Jonny von der Rheinhalle, but I think Jmm had much to do with who she was.
I had to fill in the missing dogs in her pedigree so I did not have title info or pictures for a few dogs.
At the time, my dogs were for personal protection (PPDs).
www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/681549.html
If I had this dog today, I would be competing with her and have some movies for Jeff.
by Gustav on 15 October 2010 - 03:10
Leeshideaway,
In the nineties you stillhad showline dogs with a high concentration of Mutz blood, and thus having very good working traits and in some cases producing very good working traits. But this is the irony, what has the show world done in the past twenty years....further decrease the Mutz blood found in the top showlines,thus.......lessening the working qualities. Insane!!!!! But they are bigger, richer in red and orange, more angulated, and thus clearly showing where priorites for the breed are. Sad!!
In the nineties you stillhad showline dogs with a high concentration of Mutz blood, and thus having very good working traits and in some cases producing very good working traits. But this is the irony, what has the show world done in the past twenty years....further decrease the Mutz blood found in the top showlines,thus.......lessening the working qualities. Insane!!!!! But they are bigger, richer in red and orange, more angulated, and thus clearly showing where priorites for the breed are. Sad!!
by Ibrahim on 15 October 2010 - 07:10
Novarobin,
I am not sure why the old man asked to tie the dog, but maybe so Erri would stay near the baby, feel or understand she is his responsibility, maybe confining him would bring protection instinct ou of him or simply the old man wanted to make sure if things went out of control dog wouldn't be able to reach and bite him.
Ibrahim
I am not sure why the old man asked to tie the dog, but maybe so Erri would stay near the baby, feel or understand she is his responsibility, maybe confining him would bring protection instinct ou of him or simply the old man wanted to make sure if things went out of control dog wouldn't be able to reach and bite him.
Ibrahim
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