showline bred with workingline - Page 26

As I mentioned to Silbersee way back early in this topic, Canto's 42 times compared to how many times Horand?  Across the spectrum, Horand will have even accidentally contributed far more than Canto, if you're just supposing degree of influence by "averages".  But the reality is, one single important characteristic can be completely vanquished from the genepool in only two generations time.  That's where selection plays the most important part of the issue here.  For decades, showline people have selected in favor of completely different traits than Canto could or should have provided, while the priorities of the French were appearantly of a different sort

I agree with you darylehret. But you also have to agree that you can breed that single trait back in in only two generations' time! Touche!
Of course, they can all be traced to Horand. I also mentioned that there are data in Germany about the different mother clans which were selected to be bred to Horand and his male descendants. People like Leonhard Schweikert have done extensive research on that and have attributed certain characteristics to the individual mother clans. Very interesting data but most here have never heard of it because the access to the database costs money. You have to subscribe to it! Sadly, some clans are now extinct and others are on the door to extinction. I have to renew my subscription again but I remember the principle behind it is just like native indian tribes follow their geneology.
Chris

@Prager Hans

Thanks for your input into this thread.  To be honest, I have been wondering what your general thoughts on this topic were.  While I didn't think that this sort of an out-cross would be a path that you would be interested in pursuing in your own breeding program, I was curious what you thought of it in a general sense.  Thanks for informing me!

@Jeff

Yeah, I figured my "Cease and Desist Order" would have about as much effect as scolding a Pitbull engaged in combat, but still...

@Daryl

Better luck next time.  I appreciate your candor in disclosing what could, or should have been, a nice pairing with disappointing results.  This level of honesty is to be commended.

@Silbersee

You Rock!

Peace to All,

SteveO

 Quote: Jeff and darylehret, regardless of what you say but these French dogs were often outcrossed, and they sometimes (not often but they did) went to German showlines as well. Just like the Czech breeders did, see Hans' example above.
Chris

Again, it is not something to be done here in the states, where it is either a marketing tool, or a cheap stud or bitch.

This Uran dog. Was he just a show dog, or was there some dog in his pedigree that they liked ??

Jeff,
I found Uran in a few more of his females while looking at his dogs.
Uran vom Wildsteiger Land, two times VA-1/World Sieger and several times VA, was not some dog, he was a legacy - still is! www.wildsteiger-land.de/uran/uran.htm . Unfortunately, all in German but this website tells a funny story how a very nervoes East German came to the breeder's house in secret and asked to see Uran. Later, it was found out that it was Klaus Gothe, an official from East Germany when the wall was still up (and nowadays a judge and breed surveyor of the SV). Of course, even the East Germans had admired Uran through rumors and word-to-mouth!
There is virtually no showline pedigree without Uran. He produced better females than males but his male descendant line goes through VA-1 Eiko vom Kirschental to VA-Yago vom Wildsteiger Land to VA-1 Ulk von Arlett to VA-1 Rikkor von Bad-Boll. A son of Rikkor that comes to mind is VA-Kevin vom Murrtal, residing with Tracy Bullinger in Canada. Again this line, a representative out of the Quanto vd Wienerau-line, is more known for producing excelent females.
I am serious, if you ever come to the Washington DC area with your dog, I would love to meet him and you. Why don't you post some standing photos of him?
Chris

 I don't know how to post photos. I have one of he and I, and one of him doing his silly "couche" pose.

I have a dog that is breed from American showlines. I am a fan of dog shows in general since I was a small child just for the love i have for dogs. I dont like the extreme angulation in most American showlines and never have since they starting getting really extreme. I grew in America so being a fan of the German Shepherd as a kid it was the Am. GSD that saw growing up in the 80's. I like those dogs that were square. Most people especially in the 80's in Ameria didnt do schutzhund most am. GSD at that time were companions and family guardians. Not all breeders in America breed for extreme angles as not all American with GSD's show there dogs. There are breeder that breeds to keep "correct angles and structures". Some call there dogs  old fashion GSD's.  I purchased a GSD from a small hobby breeder you can say. And he uses is male on his ranch but nothing major but he has to be able to work and herd cattle on a small scale and does some tracking when hunting. He is square not angled and he got him from a guy that used his GSD as a ranch dog also but full time. The guy I got my dog from used a female from Am. showlines and origianally that was somewhat of a draw-back for me but I really like this male dog. The Am. show dogs in my dogs pedigree are beautiful dogs very angled. Some do herding trials but I am not sure of there true working ability. I am learning but am no idiot. My uncle has a farm with some cattle that from time to time he will move. When I am helping him and my cousins I would like to use my GSD. She has high energy very high ball drive. I am getting prepared to start doing some things in herding with a group here in Texas were I am. I am honest with myself about my dog. Just because I love her and paid for her doesnt mean she should be bred. if I were ever to consider doing something as serious as breeding her she would have to show she has the traits that are desired to pass on. I dont think titles are the only way to show this but I would judge my dog by one. But with her sire he doesnt have titles but is a working dog in my narrow opionion. I dont think the average person should own him personally as he can be a handful. On the above topic I think it can be done and should be done as most american GSD's are being bred with extreme gait. but 1st american breeders have to want to breed for function then should start to breed away from the extreme gait. Just wanted to drop my two cents as i love the breed as a fan of the 80's style GSD in america.

 

 I would love to see some paragraphs there. I am getting old and it is too hard to read. Please.

I think the closest that I get to your area is Rick Rutt's place. I like going up there, he has one of the nicest fields in the country, maybe THE nicest. I have not been to all of them, so I cannot say for sure. It is the nicest one I have been to.

He is in Pa, about two hours south east from Pitt, and 3 or so from Dulles.

I agree with you darylehret. But you also have to agree that you can breed that single trait back in in only two generations' time! Touche!
 

Silbersee, that's simply not true, unless you breed it to a dog from other lines that has "it".  That's the whole idea, right?  Showlines don't have what it is you want from the working lines.  Meaning of course, that you'll have to outcross to get it back.  If you want to gain this back into your showlines, then it must be selected for, and at a higher priority than appearance characteristics to build saturation in the population.  You'll be required to build several new founders, and keep them as far apart as possible until an outcross is necessary.  That means also, complete cooperation from breeders of the same mindset to not deviate from the long term plan, which is the largest hurdle of all, in my estimate.

Sibersee,

I think that is why Tracy has produced great females over the years.  She is improving with Males like Utah, but I have always loved her female dogs.  My reccomendation to anyone.

She also had Vedor v Wildsteigerland and Pele v Oxsals who were very nice dogs.