showline bred with workingline - Page 20

 One last shot 

Quote: Jeff,
one more last time (and you have some room for accusing me of selective reading): Canto has shown up more than a couple of times in your dog's pedigree. That is why he has the influence.

As near as I can tell, he was very popular in the early 70's. So here we have a dog nearly 40 years ago, and you are pretty sure that somehow, it has effected my dog in some way. 40 years is a long time, and there is a HUGE blank spot on the other side of that pedigree.

You could contact Daniel, and ask him who would fill in the blanks back there.

 I don´t think anyone have give a good response why you it´s a good idea to cross the lines today if health and workingability is the breedinggoal, the breed was intended as a workingdog afterall. Some  have said the workinglines have wrong structure for working, like that would be a common problem, yet I find it hard to believe malinois and workingline GSDs are taken out from service because they aren´t angulated enough or haven´t enough slopping backs to be able to work long;)
What seems to be a problem is that even among the workinglines of GSDs many don´t have enough motor and fightingspirit to be able to work for long in real work, and it´s not because they are built wrong obviously, it´s the "motor" they lack according to some who breeds their dogs as workingdogs. 

It´s not so strange you can find showdog influence in some pedigress some generations back, sometimes people used dogs they have accses to, so if a showline appeard in a country(like for example in sweden where rabiesrestrictions were hard )in the early 80s many breed to that, and not all were bad. And bothering about  how many times a certain dog appears 40 years ago seems a bit odd, how much influence has it really with all new blood that have been introduced since then, and it´s not like the workingpotential will decline if people many generations since then are breeding the dogs for work I suppose.

Look at this dog below, see how many times odin v andershofer ufer appears in the 5-6th generation, at least 8 I think. The inbreeding coeffiecnt is 8.7% in that dog, I wonder then how inbreed jeffs dog is after so many genrations since canto. If jeffs dog is of breedingquality, who knows, I guess the only issue would be to avoid real tight inbreeding today, but I guess that won´t be a problem in this case, if the dog not are going to be breed with almost identical lines, or?


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/437526.html

darylehret,
I am sure you had that litter planned, why else would you have bought that Tiekerhook dog as a puppy. Yep, it just happened sooner than you figured. What a coincidence.

SO WHAT!!?? And has WHAT to do with this topic anyway?  Thought you wanted to play nice.  We don't have to, just say so.

Jeff,
you are very defensive, but I expected that since you despise showlines so much.
1) I never stated that it affects your dog. How can I? I don't even know your dog. I am stating the genetics of your dog's pedigree here, not any more and not any less. Very objectively! He has the same lines in the 7th, 8th or further back generation than all showlines. As Gustav stated, they all have Quanto and Canto blood. The workinglines do not. that is the difference.
2) Why do I have to show you how my dogs knock helpers or decoys down. I have never mention any of my dogs here, except on the first or second page, a dog I bred (showline) who was a police K9 (and so was his sire and his son - also from my kennel). What relevance do my dogs have here? And btw, I also own workinglines. Why do you always have to turn this into a "show me your dog" attitude instead of just arguing the topic here?
3) I am still waiting for a link from you where it says that only the first three generations matter in dog breeding! I do not believe that for one minute. Do you know that there is even a databank on the "mother clans" of the early beginnings of the breed? It was developed in Germany and some experts believe in that relevance. Very interesting topic.
4) Why don't you comment on my research of your dog's mother? I explained it step by step for you and it took some effort. At least acknowledge it, it would be the polite way to do. And you have the nerve to accuse me of selective reading and skipping statements.
5) The reason you have so many Canto and Quanto lines in your dog is simple: Your dog's mother has a lot of inbred lines in her pedigree which in turn are inbred numerous times on Canto and Quanto. Again, I now counted 42 times. Can you please check if I missed one or two? It gets confusing after a while.
6) Two of these French kennels seem to have been around for a long time and must have been close acquaintances with Walter Martin, the Wienerau breeder: du Val des Hurles Vent and de Gerbe de Grenval. Can you tell me more about them? There is only one du Val des Hurles Vent dog in Germany I know of and that is the one that used to be owned by Frank Bredefeld, kennel Cap Arkona. His name was Vasco du Val des Hurles Vent, V-rated, KKL1, SchH3. However, he must have been sold as I can not find him on Frank's homepage anymore and he was not used all that much. I remember a thread about him on the German workingline forum.
Chris

darylehret,
I am playing nice!! Do you? Why are you getting so angry? You  don't have much sense for humor, do you?
Sorry, I will leave your dogs alone. I promise.

Johan,
France is a neighboring country to Germany. Where are no border checks and there is no quarantine for France. Breeders from France have the same access to German dogs as Germans, Dutch, Italians or any other of the EU countries have, even England now. There is no valid excuse for not having access. It is a matter of driving, that is all. A French breeder is in Germany much quicker than I am in New York from Washington DC, for example.
Andershofer Ufer was Werner Dalm's kennel, wasn't it? I bet you had some nice East German lines to breed to.
Chris

To some people, if the dog "works", it doesn't matter.

Jeff did get this right.

Going back 30 or 40 year is far and knowone cares.  The adds here usually say VA so in so Great or Great Great grandsired pups.   Must be only between 10 and 20 years that matter in the market.

 I am not defensive at all. It is too bad that we can not have these conversations in person, you would find out how wrong you are first hand about how little I am defensive.

I actually like dogs. I like them a lot. I find that amusing that if you have no tolerance for weak breeding, you hate dogs.

I do not like the arguement that todays showlines have anything at all to do with dogs who were shown, 40 years ago. 

I do not like the IDEA of a showline dog.

The standard is the same, from the beginning, and here you see people up in arms about dogs that slink along or worse. Sickle hocked nightmares dragging around the ring.

Then I look at the working lines, another debacle, as they all should be GSD, and there is not so many to choose from.

Then, you look at the video, graf shows, and how is that acceptable ? Is this what should attain a title because they go through the motions ?

Now, you see discussions on breeding this shitter, to that shitter. It is how I see it. You will not show any video of your dogs working, so what are the odds that I am going to think that the dog is anything less than an abomination ? You are BREEDING this shit. I don't care if you train it, or want it in the house, or waste money feeding it, but the fact that you are going to breed it is wrong.

Quote:  Why do I have to show you how my dogs knock helpers or decoys down. I have never mention any of my dogs here, except on the first or second page, a dog I bred (showline) who was a police K9 (and so was his sire and his son - also from my kennel). What relevance do my dogs have here? And btw, I also own workinglines. Why do you always have to turn this into a "show me your dog" attitude instead of just arguing the topic here?

I have seen enough police "k9s" to tell you that I am not impressed. I have been told to take it easy on them in demos. Many under any real control melt like butter. They will bite, but sorry, that doesn't make me not want to see your dogs work. I make it a show me your dogs work thing, because of crap like graf was promoting. I want to see who it is I am talking to, and what it is that they are promoting. I guess you figure that I don't know what a single purpose dog would be either. They are still called "K9s".

Quote: 4) Why don't you comment on my research of your dog's mother? I explained it step by step for you and it took some effort. At least acknowledge it, it would be the polite way to do. And you have the nerve to accuse me of selective reading and skipping statements.

I thought I did. I did mention that Daniel would know who was missing in that line. He owns the hurles vent kennel.  I met him some years ago when he judged a trial for us in Colorado. We had a few of his dogs working in the club. They were VERY nice dogs. He took the kennel over from his father, I think in the 50s. He speaks ok english, so if you can find his website, there is a lot of information there.  One of the girls in the club had an Obelix son, and she went over and got her puppy. She said he has like 40 or more brood bitches. I need to go over there for sure.

I am sure that Canto was considered a "show dog" but was he ? Or was he a dog that was shown, and had good success so they continued to do it ? Was he weak in the work ?