showline bred with workingline - Page 18

Gustav, you are absolutely right.
But I spent the past hour or so looking at Jeff Oehlsen's dog which is this one (correct Jeff?): www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/669849.html . Now, I only had half the pedigree to work with since the sire line is an unknown. I do not want to go onto the working-dog.eu website right now, because there is a thread going on on the German working forum that it passes on viruses. A lot of people with IE had a total crash of their harddrives after visiting that site. So, I am going to wait a few days until it is clear again. Jeff needs to come on here and say if that pedigree is accurate or not which is often not the case here. One line that can't be right is the one behind Nory D'Echalon, out of Juran vom Wildsteiger Land and Quina Arminius (sister to the famous showline VA-1 Quando von Arminius). The whelping years do not match. So, I ignored that part of the pedigree as well.
Now Jeff, you think that Canto and Quanto do not play any role in your dog's lines. And based on this pedigree I am telling you that you are dead wrong. I counted Canto von der Wienerau 23 times on half of your dog's pedigree and Quanto von der Wienerau 11 times. Now granted that I might have miscalculated a couple of times (I do not have the patience and time today to do over it again), that is a lot of inbreeding. Gustav, do you have time to calculate the inbreeding coefficient?
Jeff, I learned a lot about these French lines and I wanted to thank you for that. Apparantly two prominent kennels - du Val des Hurles Vent and de Gerbe de Grenval based their whole lines on Walter Martin's old Wienerau dogs. To name a few:  VA-Sam, VA-Reza, V-Xando, V-Luno (who is a sibling to the famous L-litter) and the great Dixie obviously was exported to France after Walter was done with her. Marko Cellerland only appeared 3 times in the half pedigree and Mutz 5 times. That leaves room for one conclusion (and Gustav, please correct me if I am wrong) that these French ring lines genetically have much more in common with the German showlines than the workinglines and/or East German or Czech lines. Jeff, the mother of your dog has two outcrosses in her pedigree: Yoschy vd Doellenwiese and Aly v Vordersteinwald (sire of Mazurka). So, that pedigree is definitely a mix.
That is why I do not understand why people scream foul when breeders want to mix lines, show or working, Czech or working, etc.. Yes, there is not much to expect in the first or even second generation, but patience and persistence is a virtue.
Now, at this point I feel the need to mention the famous glasshouse again, you know what not to do when you are in it. No cussing, please!
Peace, Chris

Gustav,
you are right that Quanto and Canto were great dogs.
Look at Quanto Wienerau who could still compete in the show ring today: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/77.html . It is not a surprise that he is called the father of the modern showline. To me, he looks ideal. Nowadays showlines need to go back to his structure - more moderation of angulation, better topline!
Canto Wienerau is closely related to him through the L-litter Wienerau: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/141.html but his fighting drive was only sufficient in his breed survey. After his V-1 appearance at the 1971 Sieger Show, he was resurveyed with better results. It is said that both his parents were dogs with "less than ideal" temperament and that he passed it on. He was a hemophiliac and died young. His only litterbrother was stillborn because of that.  So, his daughters were obvious hemophiliac carriers - I wonder how many problems they had with that in the French lines? The modern lines escaped that because he is most notably present in the male descendant line which did not pass it on (Argus/Asslan Klaemmle, Canto Arminius, Yago Baiertalstrasse etc.) and so did his daughter Flora Koenigsbruch's decendants (obvious carrier but her sons Nick vd Wienerau and Reza v Haus Beck were not hemophiliacs - Flora to me is one of the nicest females ever to exist). Canto produced about 400 offspring before dying young but he certainly did have an impact.
You asked why he did not go VA? He supposedly was quite cowhocked and loose in his hocks (due to his angulation). His breed survey report also stated that his fighting drive was only sufficient which was rectified later in his resurvey.
These two dogs are to "blame" for the split of workinglines and showlines. Showline breeders concentrated heavily on Canto and Quanto, workingline breeders shunned them and stayed with Marko and a little bit of Mutz and of course, the famous B-litter (and repeats) Lierberg, the all important difference. All have Vello vd Sieben-Faulen in their pedigrees, but showlines connect to him through his son Jalk Fohlenbrunnen and workingline breeders through the Lierberg breedings - to simplify. 
Hope that is not too abreviated, I have no time and I am not at home to look things up.
Regards, Chris

Nice Post Gustav!

In your last sentence in your comment you said, "Its about balance, and right now the balance is lacking and until there is more balance then the extremes will continue."  Although I lack a great deal of knowledge about, and experience with, German Shepherd breeding, this is a notion that I have encountered again and again voiced by people who seem to be very knowledgable and well experienced in the breed.  I also noticed that you specified "workinglines(German)" which implicitly acknowledges workinglines other than German.

Hans Blabla, in addressing what temperamental characteristics he values in German Shepherds on a current topic about Czech dogs said, "We care in temperament about inherited: prey, courage, protectiveness, intelligence , train ability and willingness to please, investigativnes and alertness, territoriality, early workability, longevity of workability, and general versatility and discriminativness and some others."  Which I think is a pretty good summation of what most people would agree are essential temperamental traits to be pursued as breeding goals.  However a breeder chooses to acheive these goals, whether by out-crossing or not, deserves my encouragement and respect.

SteveO

PS

Thanks to all who have made thoughtful contributions to this topic.

Oh great!  Jeff's dog is the one of the two dogs I'm considering.  Suppose that makes me a hypocrite ;-)

Chris, you are correct about Quanto who I thought was the better dog. I remember Assalan v Klamme, when he was being shown in the states and he was a soft dog though he was Sch 3. He also produced soft. I think another reason Canto didn't go VA was because of his mother Zilly.
In the seventies you had some nice Quanto/Canto mixes with Mutz and Marko and even some Bernd and Busecker Scloss. They just stayed at the trough too long for my taste. I had a daughter out of Arras v Haus Helma that was out of Canto and Quanto. Fabulous temperament but she also had Lierberg in the pedigree. This was 1980. As a very successful showline breeder(I knew your dog Sam and had great respect for his work ethic), Its people like yourself who have brought genetic diversity in your lines that will persuade others to open up. Good Luck.

 Quote: Also, let’s try to cut out the swearing if you’re smart enough to do that. This is not the place to be setting yourself free with such antics. There could potentially be ladies and children reading this crap. Do you have any civilized manners or thoughts for other peoples? You should be ashamed of yourself, but I know guys like you feel no shame.

How about you blow me. You smart enough to know what that means ? I don't care if a dog breaks. and men that don't curse are pussies. How about that. Don't ever tell me how to speak. Bad enough you know fuck all about training dogs or road work, but you don't tell me how to speak, or that you imagine that their might be a child on here. Reading what, dumb ass ? THere are like two people on here that have a clue about anything dog related. The rest is just trash and you try and scold me ? Piss OFF.


Quote: Canto Wienerau is closely related to him through the L-litter Wienerau: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/141.html but his fighting drive was only sufficient in his breed survey. After his V-1 appearance at the 1971 Sieger Show, he was resurveyed with better results. It is said that both his parents were dogs with "less than ideal" temperament and that he passed it on

Love the history lesson, but lets face it, they actually had standards back then. For the past 30 some odd years they have degraded those standards rediculously.

If I were to somehow able to go back in time and snatch Canto as an adult and bring him into this time, He would be used without complaint. Can you imagine what that judge would say about the dogs of this era ? So the history lesson is cute and all, but worthless as far as influence on a dog. It was almost 40 years ago you are talking about.

 Quote: Now Jeff, you think that Canto and Quanto do not play any role in your dog's lines. And based on this pedigree I am telling you that you are dead wrong. I counted Canto von der Wienerau 23 times on half of your dog's pedigree and Quanto von der Wienerau 11 times. Now granted that I might have miscalculated a couple of times (I do not have the patience and time today to do over it again), that is a lot of inbreeding.

Yes, and it is what, 30, 40 years ago ?? How much of that is really still in there ? How many generations back did you have to go ?? There is research out there that disagrees with anything past the third generation having influence at all.

But here is the most important thing that you are missing, the breeder himself. WE DON'T HAVE THEM here in this country. When you hear of a show work cross here in the states, they are guessing, or too cheap to use a different stud, or don't like that person, or some other bullshit like that.  They are trying to sell more pups by telling us that they have done this cross and it is going to produce show, police, sport, SAR. It is marketing bullshit and that is all.

If there was a thought process to what these people are doing, if they actually knew dogs, I would not be on here. But they don't. THAT is where I disagree. Fuck those people. I threw in that fuck because you are not my father, and you don't get to tell me how to speak.

Quote Jeff: I threw in that fuck because you are not my father, and you don't get to tell me how to speak.
Wow Jeff, calm down. You are outing yourself as a kid who does not want to listen to any adult. Look at that quote! Do adults say that? It reminds me of a dog that gets cornered and starts to nervoesly snap to all directions! I am not sure if that was directed against me or somebody else, but if it was me I can assure you that I could not be your father for two reasons: I am the wrong gender and plus I am too young to be, lol. However, if my daughter or son ever said anything like that, I would slap them for it. But they won't, since they had a better upbringing.

Now for the 3rd time (?), Canto and Quanto do influence your dog's pedigree due to their multiple appearances. If you would complete Basco's pedigree here, I am sure I could find these two dogs numerous times again in the sire line. Before you dispute these facts again, please post a link to the person or the study which says that only the first 3 generations play a role. If that is the case, when they are we even having this discussion about the mixing of lines. It should not matter anymore because with your logic, it is easy to rectify any bad or good traits in any lines. Just only pay attention to the first three generations. You are disputing only yourself, Jeff.
I see that we can not have a meaningful discussion over that. You state that "THere are like two people on here that have a clue about anything dog related" . Who is that please? You and darylehret?

darylehret,
breeding your female to Basco might be a great idea for a nice mix to get more genetic diversity. With your dogs being East German and Czech, there is absolutely no common ground, unless you are already planning way ahead of yourself with your oops females (more and more I am beginning to wonder if they were really such an oops). That would give you a 4-4 on Yoschy Doellenwiese with the rest being in genetic cyberspace. However according to Jeff, after the third generation, it does not have any influence anymore. And don't worry, we would only call you a hipocrite if you continue to badmouth outcross mixes. But since you won't be doing that anymore with breeding to a dog like Basco, we all have so much in common now. LOL! I hope you take all that in a humorous way and are not so uptight like your friend Jeff whose only way out is to resort to cussing.
Chris

Having a little problem with your manhood Jeff? You sure do bring that up a lot. Maybe if you swear some more it might help you feel more like a real man. You’re a disgusting freak and a disgrace to the sport.

And you bozo’s that are enabling this clown, shame on you too.

Gustav,
thanks for your comment on our old Sam. When Sam first came over here, he absolutely adored me but after I almost drowned him with the water hose to stop a dog fight between him and our other male that changed. I was by myself with these two males and did not know what else to do. To get Sam to let go of Jury's already mangled face I shuffed the hose down his throat.  Sam kind of avoided me afterwards and became Joe's dog. Everything Sam did and was awarded with was my husband's doing and efforts. After he got his VA-rating, people pleaded with Joe to compete him but Joe traveled a lot as a Federal LEO and had no time. Unfortunately, we lost Sam at a relatively young age to perianal fistulas. He was a great dog, not used for breeding often (which is typical in this country) and we still miss him.
As to me being a successful showline breeder: I have not had a showline litter in nearly two years, isn't that strange. My last litters were workinglines and one mix. People have sent me emails to ask if I have forsaken the showlines, lol. But I have not. If everything goes alright my two homebred showline girls come home bred from Germany this fall.
Thanks for the good luck wishing and when you come to the Washington DC area, I hope you stop by for some reminiscing about old lines, lol.
Best regards, Chris