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by charlie319 on 04 June 2010 - 15:06
MRK:
I'm a relative newcomer to SchH, so I may not express my ideas/opinions in the best way and some people may not even agree with them. In other words, I'm not an expert at this, but I do have some ideas on the subject.
When you train a dog on "prey", the dog feels he's in control of the hunt or game. Prey is the drive in the dog to chase and catch his food in the wild in order to satisfy his hunger and is at its highest level when the dog is hungry. Prey driven dogs are not known to be growling and snarling. They may bark, but it is generally a higher pitched, playful kind of bark. The dog is trying to stimulate the prey to get moving so he can chase it. A dog ready to bite the sleeve in prey mode is bouncy, not stressed. Their ears are up, tails are up, they're excited about the game. That is also why if you want the dog to work in prey drive, you may want to train it while it is hungry and its prey drive heightened. These dogs usually get the best protection scores because they are easier to control in the obedience phases of the protection work and because the biting is not seen as a threat to this type of dog. The pure prey dog gets his enjoyment from biting and fighting for the sleeve. Also, these dogs do not necesarily translate to good civil working dogs.
When you work a dog in defense drive you are addressing is the protective instinct in the dog to defend, first himself and then his pups, pack, owner, etc. This is his serious side; when he is not having fun chasing but is defending/protecting. The dog is made to feel insecure or threatened and so he comes out to bite in a serious manner. While in defense drive, the dog may display aggressive behaviors. Barking, lunging, snapping, snarling and growling. The dog's hackles may be up. The dog feels that he must fight for his life. A dog in defense drive is under extreme stress. The dog may bark and back up, then move forward again. All of the lunging, snarling and other displays have one common goal: drive the threat back. That's why a defensive display has such forwardness to it, the dog wants to push the threat away. If it is such a PITA for the dog, why is defense drive desirable in a working dog???? Simple: defense drive is always accessible. It's not subject to exhaustion or boredom. Defense is what puts the seriousness into a dog's bitework In other words, a dog that works out of defense drive is not "palying", but is taking on the helper and not necesarily on the sleeve. If your you think that a dog that is growling, lunging dog is "protective", that protection, by it's very definition requires the presence of a legitimate, identifiable threat. If the dog is carrying on defensively toward a non threatening person or object, that's not protection. It is just a dog with bad nerves.
When you work a dog in defense mode, you have to be careful to restrict the options the dog has. You can use the "table" to create pressure and since the dog is tied to a pole, and unable to flee, the only option available to it is "fight". You start with the low level threat that will elicit the reaction and let the dog "win" by chasing you off. Slowly, you ratchet up the level of provocation while letting the dog continue to win and learning that facing the threat is the right way to deal with it. If it sounds pavlovian, it is. Eventually, once your dog has come out and is biting the sleeve in defense drive, you can then gradually introduce resistance and other distractions with tho objective of getting him used to and desensitized to the stick/whip and enable him to grip firmly and with a clear head. Since the dog in defense drive is not playing, as in prey, it is important that he is not fra
I'm a relative newcomer to SchH, so I may not express my ideas/opinions in the best way and some people may not even agree with them. In other words, I'm not an expert at this, but I do have some ideas on the subject.
When you train a dog on "prey", the dog feels he's in control of the hunt or game. Prey is the drive in the dog to chase and catch his food in the wild in order to satisfy his hunger and is at its highest level when the dog is hungry. Prey driven dogs are not known to be growling and snarling. They may bark, but it is generally a higher pitched, playful kind of bark. The dog is trying to stimulate the prey to get moving so he can chase it. A dog ready to bite the sleeve in prey mode is bouncy, not stressed. Their ears are up, tails are up, they're excited about the game. That is also why if you want the dog to work in prey drive, you may want to train it while it is hungry and its prey drive heightened. These dogs usually get the best protection scores because they are easier to control in the obedience phases of the protection work and because the biting is not seen as a threat to this type of dog. The pure prey dog gets his enjoyment from biting and fighting for the sleeve. Also, these dogs do not necesarily translate to good civil working dogs.
When you work a dog in defense drive you are addressing is the protective instinct in the dog to defend, first himself and then his pups, pack, owner, etc. This is his serious side; when he is not having fun chasing but is defending/protecting. The dog is made to feel insecure or threatened and so he comes out to bite in a serious manner. While in defense drive, the dog may display aggressive behaviors. Barking, lunging, snapping, snarling and growling. The dog's hackles may be up. The dog feels that he must fight for his life. A dog in defense drive is under extreme stress. The dog may bark and back up, then move forward again. All of the lunging, snarling and other displays have one common goal: drive the threat back. That's why a defensive display has such forwardness to it, the dog wants to push the threat away. If it is such a PITA for the dog, why is defense drive desirable in a working dog???? Simple: defense drive is always accessible. It's not subject to exhaustion or boredom. Defense is what puts the seriousness into a dog's bitework In other words, a dog that works out of defense drive is not "palying", but is taking on the helper and not necesarily on the sleeve. If your you think that a dog that is growling, lunging dog is "protective", that protection, by it's very definition requires the presence of a legitimate, identifiable threat. If the dog is carrying on defensively toward a non threatening person or object, that's not protection. It is just a dog with bad nerves.
When you work a dog in defense mode, you have to be careful to restrict the options the dog has. You can use the "table" to create pressure and since the dog is tied to a pole, and unable to flee, the only option available to it is "fight". You start with the low level threat that will elicit the reaction and let the dog "win" by chasing you off. Slowly, you ratchet up the level of provocation while letting the dog continue to win and learning that facing the threat is the right way to deal with it. If it sounds pavlovian, it is. Eventually, once your dog has come out and is biting the sleeve in defense drive, you can then gradually introduce resistance and other distractions with tho objective of getting him used to and desensitized to the stick/whip and enable him to grip firmly and with a clear head. Since the dog in defense drive is not playing, as in prey, it is important that he is not fra
by gertv on 04 June 2010 - 20:06
Thanks for a very well formulated post over a really controversial subject Charlie319!! Nothing dogmatic, down to earth, in my opinion the truth...
gertv
gertv
by Mrk on 05 June 2010 - 06:06
thank you all for the post. maybe what i have just need a big push in the right direction by professionals.
KCzaja,
the two dogs i have parents are VA to V1 Sch3 Kkl 1a. so yes, even the dam has nice Sch title and all that.
I dont mind putting up pedigrees but i dont want to make the breeder of my 2 dogs look bad because that is not my intentions.
KCzaja,
the two dogs i have parents are VA to V1 Sch3 Kkl 1a. so yes, even the dam has nice Sch title and all that.
I dont mind putting up pedigrees but i dont want to make the breeder of my 2 dogs look bad because that is not my intentions.
by dani81176 on 05 June 2010 - 21:06
Mrk,
it's the reality the breed is going through, that's what it is. if we're talking show line dogs, you could say SchH3 and IPO3 forever, it doesn't actually mean the dogs are good, 40% of the dogs failed the courage test at last year's BSP. There are problems even with the working line dogs, that pretty much could mean the show line dogs are compromised big time, as far as natural agression and working abilities generally speaking.
Also, well titled dogs in sports does not mean good protection dogs for your family, it just means good sport dogs. This is the ugly truth the breed has to deal with - extreme drive (sports) or extreme angulation and color (show).
You want dogs for family protection - stay away from show lines and go for working lines with good defense drive - east blood (DDR or Czech) dogs are better.
Remember - a schutzhund title on a piece of paper means nothing, it could mean just good training for a bad nerved dog.
it's the reality the breed is going through, that's what it is. if we're talking show line dogs, you could say SchH3 and IPO3 forever, it doesn't actually mean the dogs are good, 40% of the dogs failed the courage test at last year's BSP. There are problems even with the working line dogs, that pretty much could mean the show line dogs are compromised big time, as far as natural agression and working abilities generally speaking.
Also, well titled dogs in sports does not mean good protection dogs for your family, it just means good sport dogs. This is the ugly truth the breed has to deal with - extreme drive (sports) or extreme angulation and color (show).
You want dogs for family protection - stay away from show lines and go for working lines with good defense drive - east blood (DDR or Czech) dogs are better.
Remember - a schutzhund title on a piece of paper means nothing, it could mean just good training for a bad nerved dog.
by VomMarischal on 06 June 2010 - 01:06
"it could mean just good training for a bad nerved dog."
Boy I've seen a lot of that. Spot on. A good trainer can make a bad dog look good. Or, as in my case, a bad trainer can make a good dog look bad. Sigh.
Boy I've seen a lot of that. Spot on. A good trainer can make a bad dog look good. Or, as in my case, a bad trainer can make a good dog look bad. Sigh.
by Red Sable on 06 June 2010 - 01:06
dani, great post.
by Gustav on 06 June 2010 - 02:06
Dani, great post !!! That's the basic situation today and people want to point in other directions rather than deal with facts.
by dani81176 on 06 June 2010 - 06:06
@Gustav,
yes they point to other facts cause they still want their money. I am afraid the breed will continue to go down unless those truly passionate about these dogs turn back to the "old type" of dog. Are we that blind to see that they turned the breed into money maker...
Guys, you want good family protection dogs, look East! And even there, look 'deep' in the peds and do not fall for titles on paper.
yes they point to other facts cause they still want their money. I am afraid the breed will continue to go down unless those truly passionate about these dogs turn back to the "old type" of dog. Are we that blind to see that they turned the breed into money maker...
Guys, you want good family protection dogs, look East! And even there, look 'deep' in the peds and do not fall for titles on paper.
by therockkennels on 06 June 2010 - 09:06
JUST BECAUSE THE PARENTS ARE SCHUTZHUND TITLED DOESN'T MEAN YOUR DOGS ARE GOING TO EITHER BE GOOD TRACKERS OR ALREADY OBEDIENCE TRAINED OR GREAT PROTECTION IT JUST MEANS THE BLOOLINES THERE BUT YOU HAVE TO TRAIN IT MY MALE IS SCH1 & IF YOU JUST WALK BY MY PLACE HE WON'T DO NOTHING NEITHER BUT TRY TO TAKE SOMETHING OR TOUCH ME OR MY WIFE & HE WILL TAKE YOU DOWN & CHEW YOU UP UNTILL HE DECIDES YOU ARE NO LONGER A THREAT OR I CALL HIM OFF I ALSO SO HAVE A GERMAN LONG HAIRED
FEMALE SHEPERD WHO WILL DO YOU THE SAME WAY AND HAS LITTLE SCHUTZHUND TRAINING BUT ALOT OF MY TRAINING
AND REMEBER THERE IS NO BAD DOG'S JUST BAD OWNERS TRAIN THEM JUDGE YOUR DOGS BUT DON'T JUDGE SCHUTZHUND TRAINED DOGS BECAUSE IF TRAINED RIGHT THEY ARE GREAT DOGS
FEMALE SHEPERD WHO WILL DO YOU THE SAME WAY AND HAS LITTLE SCHUTZHUND TRAINING BUT ALOT OF MY TRAINING
AND REMEBER THERE IS NO BAD DOG'S JUST BAD OWNERS TRAIN THEM JUDGE YOUR DOGS BUT DON'T JUDGE SCHUTZHUND TRAINED DOGS BECAUSE IF TRAINED RIGHT THEY ARE GREAT DOGS
by dani81176 on 06 June 2010 - 14:06
Schutzhund (or IPO etc..) makes for a great gateway to breeding, for dogs that should not have progenies. One has to rmember a sport title is not passed on to the progenies, but the genes. A dog that doesn't really come close to what the GSD should be like in terms of natural agression, can still "make it" through good training.
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