Breeding programs, open and "closed" - Page 1

Hi all Have been reading the threads with interest, and thought this should be a topic all on it's own. It seems as though this will be a topic that mainly those in North America will have input on, as it we seem to be the only ones that have "closed" breeding programs. The general consenus seems to be that stud dog owners will essentially limit the breeding of their male to only their bitches, or females they may have a shared interest in...this whole concept is beyond me. How will we ever keep the gene pool varied by closing ourselves off..it just strikes me as sad that once again, the almighty dollar comes into play..and by closing off access to a male, and only allowing the genes to live vis a vis a puppy purchase, well, that just seems out and out silly and self serving. As a sidenote..most of the "breeding kennels" that utilize these "closed breeding" programs appear to simply mass produce puppies, with no real goal in mind other than the almighty end $$$ Most of these programs also seem to center around untitled breeding dogs..and huge claims of the dogs being outstanding and superior working dogs are always made. With the exception of Wayne Curry, it also seems alot of them never really do much of anything with any progeny they may keep..other than breed that as well. Just some food for thought..will enjoy reading others input here. Cheers!

I can see both sides of the coin on this one. I can understand a kennel not wanting to offer their males to any female that comes along, not knowing her temperment and personality, especially if being shipped in to be bred without ever having personal experience with the dog. If the female is nuts and her pups all turn out nuts, people might say "don't get a pup from that stud, I saw a nut job dog that was sired by him" That being said, I think the main reason kennels do it is so if you want a dog out of that male, you have to buy a pup from them. I do think for the most part breeders with this mentality are in it for the money and not the betterment of the breed. To deny the GSD world of the genes of these great producers honestly turns me off from a breeder, tells me they think $$ is more important than the quality of dogs produced.

I think that you are both correct, Narrowing the gene pools is a dangerous proposition. And at the same time I can see what VBK9 is saying as well, It would be weird breeding to a bitch that you know litterally nothing about. I guess the key would be for a breeder to be picky about approving bitches. It's sad that $$ always seems to come into the picture. It's sad that majority of USA breeders are looked at in this way instead of being looked upon as people who are truly trying to make improvements. I guess we can all only do our best and hope that in by doing so we will have an impact on this superior breed of dog, while eventually seeing the $$ seekers fade away due to lack of good breeding practices and attention to detail. But again I would guess if you own the dog you get to pick. Even if only few people see the disaster that could potentially come of narrowing down the gene pools. Good subject, glad you brought it up this deserves much attention and investigation. I will be anxious to see what others have to say as well.

Well thought replies so far..nice to see! I think the main thing to remember is, that as a stud dog owner, you should always reserve the right to DECLINE service to a female. For example, if this female is shipped in to you, or delivered to you, and she does not possess the strength of temperment you would like to see, you always should retain the right of refusal of services. At that point, the stud dog owner should also be prepared to perhaps assist the bitch owner in securing the services of another male as a courtesy, AND refund any fees paid to this point, (less expenses should you have to pick up the female at the airport etc). Now, in the case of shipped semen, you would and SHOULD ask for references on a female if you agree to a breeding sight unseen.. Of course, these are all just my opinions, but it saddens me to see what trends are taking place within the breed, in both Show and Working line camps. The right to refuse a female is the safety net stud dog owners should use..it should be made very clear to the bitch owner that services can be refused if the stud dog owner does not feel that the female is in fact of breedable quality, (ie: incorrect coat, incorrect bite, and most important, poor temperment etc). I just personally feel that these owners of stud dogs in "closed programs" are not at all concerned about the actual quality of "outside" bitches, they are more concerned with the end net profit. This really stands out in my eyes when I see these same "programs" breeding untitled males AND females of their own...and it seems to be mainly in the working lines. Once again, just my observations and thoughts. I do not want to name any particular kennel(s) as that would be unfair..and would turn this entire thread into a kennel bashing free for all..instead, I would like to encourage more dialog.. Cheers!

Coming from a long background in horses - the phrase "available to approved females" is common. Depending on the focus of the kennel, I can understand requiring certain credentials and health clearances for outside females. And even approval or declining a female on pedigree if the stud owner is experienced and is trying to set a type in his progeny. With a large number of females of their own, I also can understand a limiting of outside females based on timing of their own females' cycles. In order to have the best chance of getting females pregnant, the male can only do so many breedings in a particular time period. With all that being said - dog breeding is a big money business in some cases. Some US kennels, a few of them are newcomers and smaller, have imported some very interesting males {off the top of my head, I am thinking of at least 4 different ones, not necessarily Kraftwerk!!!} One male was one I admired in Germany, and had even talked to the owner there about a breeding. So I was happy to see the dog here. I found that the kennel had a policy of no outside breedings - Of course, they would be happy to IMPORT a female, breed her to the male, and SELL her to me - for an exhorbinant price of course. They had 2 coming to offer me! So I should buy a Sch 1 KKL2 female, with poor pigment and FN hips, older of course, who had had a half dozen litters - instead of breeding my own good looking, dark pigmented, Schh3, IPO3, KKL1, OFA Good/Normal, or even 'a' normal/OFA Good, Sch3 KKL2 import? In my mind, someone bringing in a stud should want him to breed approved outside females in order to promote him by the exposure those pups would bring when from a nice female.

Refusing an ethical breeder with a top quality, well bred bitch stud service is self-serving regardless of who owns the stud dog or how many bitches they themselves wish to breed to him. It's OK to buy a bitch already bred to one's stud, but it's not OK to breed a good bitch to him? What's that all about anyway? How is the breed ever going to progress in the US if those with the money to bring the top dogs here refuse to allow them to be bred to "outside" bitches? Breeders in most other breeds mentor one another and share their top producers. Most breeders I know in other breeds import dogs with the hope they will be used by others.

Bottom Line - $$$$$$$$$$ Biggest profit possible per transaction!!! Stud fee - $600 - 800 - sale of bred bitch - investment maybe $3500 for dog and transport - sell for $10,000 - 12,000 -profit $6,500 to 8,500???? hmmmm Looks like a no brainer for the P&L!!!! These breeders are not the breeders Max exhorted us to be! These are business operations, pure and simple. Yes, they ALL "love" the breed - but they are commercial operations PERIOD. While I wonder if I can find good homes for 6 puppies, and get a decent price for a litter where both parents are Schh3, KKL and at least one is a proven producer of titled and koered dogs, they have 15 to 40 pups and 3 - 10 litters listed at LOTS more money....they corner the market on a male who may be attractive to buyers because of his accomplishments or his persona built online etc.

Very sad, Kougar. It's sort of a dead end street for the hobby breeder, isn't it? I've always felt that the true "lovers" of any breed are those who mentor their peers and do all they can to bring their breed to perfection. That doesn't seem to be a priority with many big GSD breeders, it's all about self-promotion and making money. Too bad.

Blitzen, I don't think it's a dead end street for the hobby breeder. Quite the contrary, I think once the "fad" of this passes and the public(consumers in the USA) has gone through their "learning curve" and actually educates themselves to Schutzhund and the dogs involved, they will seek out hobby breeders to save a buck or two. These big name kennels have their "poker bluff" in for now(You only get the best if you buy from them). The neophyte knows no better and takes his 2500-3000 dollars to buy a puppy that he could buy for 1200 dollars, or even 800 dollars. Some dogs you get from the big name kennels are actually inferior to some puppies bred by hobby breeders. They are all dogs, all a crap shoot(talking puppies here), but marketing and the trend says that "Big Name Kennel" has the best. Trust me, the big kennels do not want to see good hobby breeds exuding honesty and honest prices. Why? Because when the public catches on, they will be up to their butts in puppies/dogs, that they will have to lower the prices on or not be able to sell and no way to pay their bills. It is all about supply and demand. If you are a quality small hobby breeder, I say enjoy what you are doing and don't worry about what the others are doing. I for one am glad I have some other means of taking care of myself than depending on selling a dog to eat. As I see it, my dog breeding is more objective and more of a passion, because there is not conflict of interest surrounding my breeding. Just an opinion. Stephen

Stephen, I think you're overestimating the USA consumer. There has always and probably always will be a "bigger is better" mentality and an impulsive buying habit in the USA. Following that line of thinking, the typical US consumer says "It costs a lot, so it must be better" and doesn't look any further...no research, no questions, no scrutiny...then they blame everyone but themselves when something bad happens. There are small groups that do serious research when looking for a dog, but they will always be a minority. Those serious about the breed (both consumers and breeders) will continue to make the best possible choices and do their homework, but I don't think those will ever become the norm. Plain and simple (on the original topic), I think a totally closed breeding program is nothing more than an excuse to make more money...especially when a big name stud is involved. It's quite fine to be very picky about the bitches bred to your stud, even having the right to say "No" all the way up to the first tie...there's nothing wrong with that. But the stud owner also must do their homework to find out about the females that people are wanting to breed to the stud. It's all part of being stewards of the breed, both sides (stud owner and bitch owner) are responsible for the next generation. Keeping a potentially influential male (hopefully good) to only a couple of bitches owned by the same person, that's short sited and the goal is only on the pocket book and not towards the betterment of the breed as a whole. To say anything else is just making excuses as to why and to try to justify the greed.