HD and hip x-rays - Page 1

I have a 10 month old male pup that I just had penn hip and OFA hip and elbow prelimb x-rays done on. The vet said the dogs right hip has a lot of laxity in it but over all it is in very good postion and he feels the hip will certify OFA Good. The left hip is another story. The vet says it should OFA Mild dysplasia because he can already see changes in the hip and DJD is also present. I then asked him what he feels the hip will look like in about 14 months since he is just a puppy and hasn't finished growing yet and his opinion was that it will only get worse with time. I decided to contact the breeder of the pup since he has a guarantee on him to give them a heads up so they aren't shocked when I get the results back. He doesn't feel that you can get accurate results with x-rays on a dog that's only 10 months old. I then asked him what I was supposed to do if the prelimbs come back dysplastic or if he is going to replace the dog or not. He said if the prelimbs come back dysplastic he will replace the dog and then told me I could have any dog I wanted. Today I got an e-mail from him saying that he is going to send a copy of my dogs hip x-rays to 2 specialists that don't believe in x-raying dogs under anesthesia. The reason I take then to a Penn Hip vet is because they are specialists in taking proper x-rays and I always thought that you got more accurate x-rays when a dog is under anesthesia. I am not mad at the breeder for doing any of these things because I agree that there should be a second opinion on his hips but am worried that he doesn't want to replace my puppy. Any advice or information any one can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thank You. Mysti

Mysti, There have been many discussions on this board and elsewhere about PennHip and whether it is superior to OFA etc. Personally, I do not believe it is. But regardless, the bottom line is that Penn Hip is not accepted by any organization as proof of hip status. Look at your contract. What does it say? It does sound like the breeder wants to check the x-rays and you should feel fine about that. Even if he wants to have you re-do them for OFA, you should feel fine. He has that right and it is likely or should be in the contract. In any case, I can not believe you would want to give up this dog after having him for this time. So my advice is to be certain there is a problem before making an issue out of it. There are many dogs who are mildly dysplastic and who never have a single problem. There are plenty of dogs who have better hips who do develop a problem. So another thing to consider is what you intend to do with the dog. If this were a dog I bred, I would allow you to keep him, ask you to submit prelims to OFA and then we would wait. If they were an issue, meaning they did not pass, then we would decide what to do then. I would not require you to return the dog, and depending on our prior agreement, would either give you a second dog, or some money or give you some credit on another dog. But I would expect to also be satisfied that the dog you had first really was at issue. Do you have a written contract in which it states the dog will be replaced if the hips do not pass OFA? Or Penn Hip? Good luck.

Hi Hodie, Yes I do have a written guarantee signed by the breeder and myself for a replacement and I can still keep the puppy I have now. I have had the OFA hip and elbow prelimbs done and they are on their way to get checked by the OFA. I just want to know what peoples thoughts are on using anesthesia for x-rays vs. not using anesthesia. And if a dog OFA prelimbs with hip dysplasia it's not going to certify later is it? He's already been having problems getting up off of the ground when he's been laying down for a long time. I've been giving him a liquid glucosamine supplement with a high quality large breed puppy food. Mysti

At 10 months he could be having growing pains in general that make it difficult for him to get up. Keep him very lean, and no he should not be getting puppy food any more. It is important that a puppy grows slowly. Accellerated growth phases can be just another cause for HD. I recommend Eaglepack Original Adult for pups older than 12-16 weeks. Try to add MSM to the glucosamine because both work much better together than just one or the other. Or switch to a supplement that already has both. If Glucosamine is not working or upsetting your dogs system, switch to Chondroitin with MSM. You can also try an injectible form a couple of times now which should give a more noticable result and quicker, but do keep up the oral supplementation as well. I personally would not replace a dog based on a prescreen unless the prescreen was very bad. I would always recommend to properly screen and a-stamp at one year of age. And yes, I would also want to see questionable x-rays, and if needed would ask to have the dog screened again. I think that is a very resonable request. Not sure on the PennHip. According to them their system is accurate for dogs as young as 4 months. Since so many people have had experiences with getting different results when screening with PennHip and OFA for example, I personally would stick with what is known like the a-stamp as first choice, OFA second, OVC and PennHip last. But I would certainly be interested in knowing what the PennHip results are. Question: if a dog is screened in one system and fails, and is rescreened in another system and passes, or vice versa - will a pup still need to be replaced? Or will one passing grade be enough to fulfill a breeders obligations if a repacement guarantee was given. Interested in your thoughts...

Hi there...just a thought on young dogs and also older dogs...I used to give supplements and I was told by a very knowledgeable research doctor that you can give "Raw" chicken to your dogs and you now don't have to give supplements...Well I am one that doesn't just listen to people and just carry out tasks because someone has told me so...I want proof and I think I now have that proof...In my kennel I have a 7 month old female GSD who has been raised from 7 weeks on to eat some raw chicken with her food...(she's never had a problem yet...will pre-lim her soon)...Also the main reason I started my dogs on chicken was because of a GSD (3 1/2 yrs old) with a very sensitive stomach...and had diarrhea for a long time...He has now gained about 15 pounds back and his diarrhea is gone...I also have a 14 yr old female that does very well on "Raw" chicken...it helps her teeth and also she seems to be getting around better...By the way I don't supplement anymore... ~Bob~

Just curious about this pup's pedigree. What are the hip ratings of the Sire and Dam and the next two generations? Have been reading alot on HD including alot of posts on this website and interested in how the pedigree looks; for example, are all of them A normal etc....

The reason I like the penn hip testing is because it shows how much laxity is in each hip and it takes x-rays of the hip in three different positions. If a dog passed the OFA certification and got a low penn hip score I would just watch which dogs I bred him to, but if the dog does not OFA certify I would expect the breeder to give me a replacement dog since I have a guarantee against HD. Both of my pups parents hips are normal and then each one of their parents have fast normal and normal. I've also been supplementing him with MSM and Nzymes. Mysti

Mysti, part of your original post asked about using anesthaesia during the hip x-ray. I personally do not, and I always make sure that the dog has had a morining of normal exercise before we do the x-ray. Of course for the elbow x-ray we must apply some level of anesthaesia or we will never make a good shot. Now, the use of anesthaesia does allow easier positioning of the dog and fewer bad shots. With an experienced veterinarian, an out-of-position shot or a tibia ball pulled from an acetebelum is usually not an issue. Normally, the OFA x-ray will not detect joint laxity unless the dog is fully sedated and improperly positioned or already has so much laxity that the joint never really stays together. It will however allow a good picture of the hip construction and will show any arthritic changes or other damage that can be caused by joint laxity or injury. Over time, even a great set of hips can be destroyed by too much joint laxity. Even without anesthaesia, a poor hip will never look good on the x-ray. The OFA states that its preliminary findings are 80% accurate. Your breeder is evidently working with you as he wants the x-rays evaluated by others, and that is fair. If your veterinarian's findings are accurate, you should not expect the condition of the hips to improve. You can continue the supplements as they will do no harm. Bob-O

I am a breeder and vet tech I use Penn-hip OFA OVC and A-stamp. this is a very inconsist topic unfortantly I believe penn-hip is very useful penn-hip has accually inproved its mediun over the last 10 years which is better than OFA. I have a bitch that is Penn-hip 90% Ofa good OVC Clear, Then I have a bith that is Penn-hipped 70% OFA Exellant A-stamped normal. I think personally germany certfies there hips to early, I have a male that I bred i messed up at 17 months instead of 18 month I penn-hipped and was going to send of for OVC so I would have a elbow certify. He came back in the 80% on penn-hip, SO I never used to do OFA because i have seen so my inconsist. They send them in come back bad so reshoot and send back in and get Good!! so I waited until he was 2 to just do OFA mianly for elbows I put the x-ray on the viewer and Oh my god!! I could see the changes. I told my boss he would go Fair or mild He went Fair. She said if he did she would repeat it which we did and came back in a very rare occiasion Dyplasia with tight hips. I personlly think that a dog needs a least 2 hip certifaction. Before being breed. I do not believe in breeding a male that is OFA Fair. I also had a bitch at 18 month penn-hipped in the 35% and Passed OVC. But I waited until 2 to see if she could pass OFA Nope came back Mild Dyplasia. she was placed in a pet home. I have a friend in wiscousin who import a male had A-normal hips then submitted to Ofa came back Moderatley dyplastic. Then another who had a 6 month prelimb come back moderately dyplastic and a 2 years OFA GOOD So!!!!!!! it come down to breeder quality

Igslady, I feel that the "a" stamp evaluation at one (1) year of age is not thorough because it is too early in the dog's lifetime. Of course a breed-surveyed dog must be x-rayed and recertified every two (2) years, so that is one (1) method of control. That is of course until he is of six (6) years of age and the Liebenzeit (LZ) rule takes effect. In tht case if the dog was able to maintain a rating of "a" Normal through the age of six (6) years, then he no doubt has well-developed and tight hip joints. The simple extended-leg exam will show whether a serious problem exists with the hips regardless of the age. I hate to say it, and I have been blasted for using these terms. The results of this evaluation, whether interpreted by the S.V. or the O.F.A. can be subjective, and not always scientific. I do like the idea of the Penn-Hip, as there are certain measurements that are taken and it does require some expertise. However, tt is just a bit too new for me to be 100% comfortable with it. Bob-O