Please Help Moral Dilema - Page 1

Hello all, My daughter entered into a Co-Own agreement with a breeder in the states over a year ago. The agreement was that she would co-own this dog with the breeder until she eighther 1. Ch. the dog out or 2. would give her a puppy out of a breeding. Well here is where it went south, The dog only descended one testicle, Now as an ethical breeder with the desire for improvements in the breed, I will not breed this dog. Also he obviously never made it to the show ring because only one testicle. So here's the thing, we have all this time and energy into this dog along of course with alot of Love, We absolutely adore him. But my daughter was unable to produce the above agreement because the dog is faulted, So the breeder now wants us to 1. ship the dog back to her for a replacement dog, or 2. pay for the dog outright. Well we can't ship him back he is one of the family I would not and could not do that, but because we were not able to show the dog because of a fault to fulfill the agreement I don't beleive that my daughter should pay full price for the dog eighther, Am I wrong thinking this way ? If I am I can accept that and we will pay for the dog, I just would like to have some opinions We want to do the right thing by the breeder and of course by ourselves as well. Feedback Please, and Please be honest I can take brutal honesty and that's exactly what I'm asking for. Thanks so much for anyone who's willing to share they're feelings on this subject.

Hi Get him castrated and Pay pet price for him..

For me co-ownership implies each party has an agreement with each party having a specific responsibility towards improvement of the dog. Attachment to the dog is always an issue and why some breeders insist that faulty pups/dogs be returned for a replacement, they know it's so hard to do. They also realize their kennel name is attached to the dog and will insist on having it spayed/neutered to prevent any breeding. You could try to negotiate a lower price for the dog because of the fault if keeping the dog is that important or you could send it back for a replacement which seems to be what the agreement was. It seems as though the co-owner is willing to uphold there end of the bargain and you are the one with the issues to deal with. If you can't negotiate a lower price for the dog, then you end up paying full price for a faulty one because of the attachment issue. Your call. Hope this helps!

Yes, I agree with Taz, if at the time of the agreement if you were looking for just a pet not a show dog, you'd pay pet price (if the breeder prices the two differently) and end up having the dog neutered. Therefore the dog is now PET quality and you should pay a PET price if you want to keep him. It would be nice if the breeder would let you keep him considering the disappointment of not being able to show him, but its not a perfect world, the breeder has every right to ask you for money. The bright side is that this condition is extremely minor health issue, all you need to do is neuter and voila the dog is a normal pet. If you entered into full ownership instead of co-ownership you would have paid full price for a show dog. Depending on this breeders regular contract, you wouldn't have walked away with any better of a deal, you'd be lucky to get some money back if you kept him. Insist on paying PET PRICE, but pay...and ALWAYS check the testicles before you buy. The breeder SHOULD have checked! Especially if he had special interest in you showing the dog, I am puzzled as to why he didn't.

I wonder if the breeder doesn't trust that you are telling the truth about the undescended testicle? Have you already paid pet price and the reason for the co-own is to make up the difference from pet price to full price? If the puppy has an undescended testicle and you've already got an investment in the dog, besides the emotional investment, consider showing the dog. As a breeder (s)he can't want a dog from their breeding program constanting being disqualified. Published results can be a good motivator for making this right. If your story is complete as written, I'd let the breeder know you are entering the dog in a show. See if the options you face then change? Sue-Ann

Did the contract specifically cover the testicles not dropping? It should have been comprehensive. I would think the breeder would be at least willing to discuss options if it wasnt covered in the agreement. You also have to consider the dogs point of view, I know that might sound silly but we are obligated to have regard for our beast. If ripping him from the family he has known and loves will have a negative impact then that should be considered. I agree with Taz about the pet price. Through it all everything should be kept civil even if there is a disagreement. Sorry you are having this dilemma. ~~C

What does the contract say? My guess is that it guarantees to replace the pup if this pup does is not as described. If the dog was described either as a show dog or a breeding dog, then he obviously does not. Since the breeder is willing to replace the pup, then it is up to you to decide what you want to do. If you just want the dog to be a pet, what difference does it make if the breeder is a co-owner or not? As a breeder, I wouldn't want to remain a co-owner on this dog as I could be held liable for damages caused by the dog. If you are competing in the AKC ring, you always have the option of getting an ILP number and competing in performance with that. You obviously cannot compete in conformation. So you get to decide which route to take. I don't know if you paid anything for the dog initially, but it seems that the fair thing would be to offer the breeder the pet price she normally charges for a monorchid. By the way, how old is this dog?

I hope that your agreement with the breeder has a statement about the presence of both testicles if the male was purchased/co-owned for the purpose of showing in the conformation ring. If it does not, then you are forced to negotiate a settlement that works for you and te breeder. If the breeder wants to play tough guy (or tough gal) about this issue, then do as Sue-Ann said and try to show this dog as often as possible. The breeder must realize that this is a conformation fault that will prevent the dog from successfully competing in a conformation show, and the reason will be stated in writing. As far as proof, have your veterinarian examine the dog's testicles and place his findings in writing. I understand your attachment to the dog and his to your family. But, with an undescended testicle he is definitely PET quality and must be priced (typically 1/2 of the show-quality price)as such. It's basically the same as having one (1) hip that will not pass. I suggest as do some of the others, and try to negotiate a pet price for the dog and keep him. If he is quite trainable you can still enter him in performance events and have some fun with him. I really don't need to say this; but you know by now that if you enter into such an agreement in the future that you will have everything in writing as well as a full examination (by a veterinarian at your expense, if necessary) before you complete the agreement. If you want a dog that is guaranteed to be show quality, then you must have a very detailed agreement and of course you must pay for these details. And, if the breeder will not agree to your terms, then you can go to one who will. It's those things that do not go well in life that cause us to do better next time. It's called experience, and it's usually not pleasant. Bob-O

I think breeders put this clause of returning the dog in their contract because they know the owner is going to become attached and will not want to give it up, therefore, no replacement dog or money is due back. I do have a similar clause in my puppy contract, as one of the POSSIBLE options in the case of a serious problem, but it is only so that I can have the dog returned if part of it's problems is abuse. Otherwise, if the animal is spayed or neutered, the buyer gets to keep the dog. Why would any breeder want to have to find the dog a good home if he already has one?

You should keep the dog, neuter him and pay the breeder her pet price. The big lesson to be learned here is to NOT co-own a dog with anyone you do not know well.