What does this mean - Page 1

when they are doing the bitework for the Seiger Shows, and they report "verhanden", what does that mean? I've seen "pronounced" on most. thanks in advance

Vorhanden is sufficient

thank you

Does that mean it's less than pronounced?

Yes, it's less than pronounced. Think of it this way... 1st dog you say "Holy $#!%"...pronounced. 2nd dog you say "ummm alright"...sufficient. 3rd dog you say "wow, I didn't realize it could make it back to the car that fast"...insufficient. Though depending on who you talk to, quite a few "ummm alright" dogs get pronounced.

What a great way of explaining it. And as for you last comment, "seeing is believing," which I just did. :)

That explaination made me laugh!! I did notice that the dog I was wondering about that got the "verhanden" isn't anywhere on the final list of the working males..does "sufficient" or "verhanden" disqualify the dog...

Love that explanation, MikeRussell! LOL It is a shame and a disservice to the truly 'holy sh**!' performances that the 'ummmm...alright' performances many times also recieve pronounced. One of my pet peeves.

sufficient means just that...the dog has sufficient drive in the exercise, so it's passing, just not noteworthy. If it's at a big show (where standards have been known to slide in the "protection" phase) and the dog got sufficient, I'd personally question the dogs drive/temperament/courage.

Mike, love the description :o). Though I translate vorhanden with drive being present. Just not exaggerated as in pronouced. Sufficient means enough. I know that is often used as a translation, IMO that is not quite correct. Vorhanden literally means "it is there". It does not mean that barely enough of it is there... And I feel that I need to take a stand for the show line dogs and the Sieger Show courage test, again... any dog that can perform in front of thousands of people (ok maybe not thousands outside of Germany, but in Germany, yes thousands), with other dogs doing courage tests right beside them (at least in Germany - have yet to see a single SchH trial where that would be happening), with stressed handlers that are doing something they are not 100% into to begin with, just doing out of necessity, nor spend all their spare time at it, like SchH sport enthusiasts do... any dog who can perfom under such circumstance, which are a far cry from your regular home based SchH trial, at which many dogs of all lines - working lines, DDR lines, show lines also fail rather regularly, never mind the many, many working line dogs who just don't have it to compete outside their home base, but would rather run for the car... any dog who can perform there does deserve a bit more credit than is usually given on this board - for just completing the task. These are dogs after all! Dogs who are only as good as their talent *AND* quality of their training *AND* quality of their trainer *AND* quality of their helper *AND* quality of their handler *AND* their particular day form! SchH enthusiasts and working line folks need to complete only one show (providing outside of Germany they actually bother to even do that one show), then their dog never has to see the show ring again, ever! But more so, a G or SG rating is well accepted as being enough among working line folks. Though for the most part the G/SG is more due to blanant lack of ring training, and lack proper presentation, rather than actual conformation and show potential of the dog. So why is a half ass ring performance on a very, very, very basic level for a working line dog ok, but a half ass bit work performance, under anything but normal conditions is rediculed soooooooo much and sooooo often????? Just curious... ;o)