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by Prager on 10 August 2009 - 22:08
When / History: In old days (and I still do it) a K9 in Czech in order to be considered for future breeding and further training in Czech Border patrol was tested for INHERITED fight drive prey drive, defense/courage and tracking all in one test.
What: Test situation was not trained before with test subject. This is not learn behavior. This is a do or fail one time test.
Dog: Young 8 - 12 mo GSD well socialized dog which is semi green dog. Trained on tug and soft sleeve mostly one man routine done by the owner.
Setup: Area strange to the dog. In the woods dirt road 100 m (330 ft). Thick woods with under brush on both sides.
Dog is on leash and decoy with no obvious equipment (hidden sleeve only) comes out of the woods 100 m away. Yells aggressively and fires gun 3x. Runs into the woods under 90* angel to the dirt road 100m deep into the woods. Hides behind the tree.
Dog is released 1 minuter after the shots were fired.
Results desired: While being held for 1 minute dog will show considerable agitation and willingness to go look for the bad guy. After he is released dogs shoots down the road very fast and then track enthusiastically until he finds the PASSIVE decoy . When he finds him he should bark aggressively , harass the PASSIVE decoy and preferably to bite him.
Compare this to a a SchH test of protection and tracking. What is the difference?"
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
by wetzler on 10 August 2009 - 22:08
MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT A BALANCE OF PREY AND DEFENSE= FIGHT DRIVE
by Christopher Smith on 10 August 2009 - 23:08
This is not learn behavior.
Some of it is. You said "Trained on tug and soft sleeve". Training the dog with a soft sleeve and tug can develop prey drive. When the decoy runs away he is the prey, the same as the owner was when he was ran around with the tug and sleeve.
I don’t think that this test shows anything definitive as a stand alone test, but it is a very good test none the less.
BTW, how do you know the dog is using his nose and not his other senses to find the decoy?
Compare this to a a SchH test of protection and tracking. What is the difference?"
This has nothing to do with the schutzhund test! The schutzhund test is a test of the dog and his training. This test is only testing the dog and it has no definitive right response. This test does not speak to the trainability of the dog. A dog could pass this test with flying colors and turn out to be a nightmare to train. And no matter what you do with it, “real work” or sport, without training the dog is useless.
Some of it is. You said "Trained on tug and soft sleeve". Training the dog with a soft sleeve and tug can develop prey drive. When the decoy runs away he is the prey, the same as the owner was when he was ran around with the tug and sleeve.
I don’t think that this test shows anything definitive as a stand alone test, but it is a very good test none the less.
BTW, how do you know the dog is using his nose and not his other senses to find the decoy?
Compare this to a a SchH test of protection and tracking. What is the difference?"
This has nothing to do with the schutzhund test! The schutzhund test is a test of the dog and his training. This test is only testing the dog and it has no definitive right response. This test does not speak to the trainability of the dog. A dog could pass this test with flying colors and turn out to be a nightmare to train. And no matter what you do with it, “real work” or sport, without training the dog is useless.
by Prager on 10 August 2009 - 23:08
to Wetzler:
There are many definitions of these terms. This how I see it and it just my view.
Fight drive: Ability of a dog to bring the fight to the "bad guy" .
Yes fight drive is supported by part of prey drive called hunt drive. Courage based defense is also necessary to deal with the stress of the exercise. The Dog needs to have adequate absolute amount of high hunt drive and courage to get to the bad guy.. Hunt drive (Which is part of prey drive) enables the dog to locate the perpetrator / decoy, defense drive gives him courage to employ the fight drive. However, just because I do have courage and ability to hunt someone down does not mean that I will fight. That is what fight drive will do. Thus Prey/hunt drive, defense/courage, and fight drive are closely intertwine, but all different aspects of the same action absolutely necessary for working dog to perform well in this test.
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
There are many definitions of these terms. This how I see it and it just my view.
Fight drive: Ability of a dog to bring the fight to the "bad guy" .
Yes fight drive is supported by part of prey drive called hunt drive. Courage based defense is also necessary to deal with the stress of the exercise. The Dog needs to have adequate absolute amount of high hunt drive and courage to get to the bad guy.. Hunt drive (Which is part of prey drive) enables the dog to locate the perpetrator / decoy, defense drive gives him courage to employ the fight drive. However, just because I do have courage and ability to hunt someone down does not mean that I will fight. That is what fight drive will do. Thus Prey/hunt drive, defense/courage, and fight drive are closely intertwine, but all different aspects of the same action absolutely necessary for working dog to perform well in this test.
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 11 August 2009 - 00:08
To:
Christopher Smith
Inherited
OK Point well taken. I meant to say that the dog did not ever see this test before and there was only minimal development of prey in order to develop what ever amount of prey is there. Prey is after all always inherited.
This has nothing to do with SchH test.
Thank you for making my point exactly! But it should have EVERYTHING to do with it. Since SchH was originally test of suitability to be bred. Just like this test.
Train-ability :
Train-ability is not a part of this test. Even so dog who can do this without much training can most likely be easily trained. There may be exceptions....but I doubt it. You are saying that there is not definite right response. But off course there is.!Dog has to go and find the passive decoy bark at him and preferably bite him.
Prager
http://www.alpinek9.com
Christopher Smith
Inherited
OK Point well taken. I meant to say that the dog did not ever see this test before and there was only minimal development of prey in order to develop what ever amount of prey is there. Prey is after all always inherited.
This has nothing to do with SchH test.
Thank you for making my point exactly! But it should have EVERYTHING to do with it. Since SchH was originally test of suitability to be bred. Just like this test.
Train-ability :
Train-ability is not a part of this test. Even so dog who can do this without much training can most likely be easily trained. There may be exceptions....but I doubt it. You are saying that there is not definite right response. But off course there is.!Dog has to go and find the passive decoy bark at him and preferably bite him.
Prager
http://www.alpinek9.com
by clifford on 11 August 2009 - 01:08
that is crazy 8- 12 monthes old he should be only bite on pray how tought you to train dog.
thank you
thank you
by clifford on 11 August 2009 - 01:08
he is just a puppy, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,god
by Christopher Smith on 11 August 2009 - 01:08
Thank you for making my point exactly! But it should have EVERYTHING to do with it. Since SchH was originally test of suitability to be bred. Just like this test.
This has nothing to do with a breed test either. If an 8 month old dog can pass this test it’s probably is not a test on par with a breed test. Would you breed a dog simply because it passed this test at 8 months?
Even so dog who can do this without much training can most likely be easily trained. There may be exceptions....but I doubt it.
In schutzhund we know the dog is trainable. I can easy imagine a high prey drive dog that lacks courage passing this test. Remember all the dog must do is chase and bark according to your criteria. If the dog doesn’t bite, then how do you know if he will ever bite? My neighbor’s dog chases people all over my block and barks at them when they stop or climb on top of a car, but has never bitten anyone. According to your test, as written, he would make a good working dog or stud dog. Conversly, if a dog comes in and bites with the courage of a lion, how do we know the dog will ever be controllable.
Once again, how do you know that the dog is using his nose and not his other senses?
And just to let you know, I’m leading you into a trap to make you admit that schutzhund, as it is, can be used as a breed test.
This has nothing to do with a breed test either. If an 8 month old dog can pass this test it’s probably is not a test on par with a breed test. Would you breed a dog simply because it passed this test at 8 months?
Even so dog who can do this without much training can most likely be easily trained. There may be exceptions....but I doubt it.
In schutzhund we know the dog is trainable. I can easy imagine a high prey drive dog that lacks courage passing this test. Remember all the dog must do is chase and bark according to your criteria. If the dog doesn’t bite, then how do you know if he will ever bite? My neighbor’s dog chases people all over my block and barks at them when they stop or climb on top of a car, but has never bitten anyone. According to your test, as written, he would make a good working dog or stud dog. Conversly, if a dog comes in and bites with the courage of a lion, how do we know the dog will ever be controllable.
Once again, how do you know that the dog is using his nose and not his other senses?
And just to let you know, I’m leading you into a trap to make you admit that schutzhund, as it is, can be used as a breed test.
by Prager on 11 August 2009 - 01:08
Clifford
The influence of this test is still, after 40-50 years, seen in desirability for Czech dogs all over the world.
How tough are your dogs Clifford?? These dogs are tough and can be safely around childrem or in any environment. And work as S&R, police, handicaped suport dogs, sport, hospitals, family protectors, or plain pets. Amazing HUH?
Prager
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Christopher Smith on 11 August 2009 - 01:08
that is crazy 8- 12 monthes old he should be only bite on pray how tought you to train dog.
Who says that? Did Moses lose a rule on his way back down the mountain?
IMO, there should always be some level of opposition and fight coming from the decoy. The level of this should be dictated by the dog. Some dogs can handle more than others. If your puppy can’t take some level of opposition and fight then it’s not a good puppy. This is a good test.
Who says that? Did Moses lose a rule on his way back down the mountain?
IMO, there should always be some level of opposition and fight coming from the decoy. The level of this should be dictated by the dog. Some dogs can handle more than others. If your puppy can’t take some level of opposition and fight then it’s not a good puppy. This is a good test.
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