Vote for work or show - Page 3

working dogs evry time.

showdogs r sooooooo boring.beauty without brains.

not my cuppa tea.

Elkoor, I think you are stereotyping too much.  Sure there are some tendencies for showline breeders (zuchtschau) to concentrate too much on selecting a dog that can win big in front of the current judges and politics (requiring long lower thighs and roach), and the working line (profung) breeders that concentrate too much on point winning rather than overall natural working temperament, specializing in prey driven maniacs that are way too long with poor bone, no angles, and very faulty movement.  Both factions tend to go to far in their quest to win.  Many SL GSDs that win do not meet the FCI/SV standard and are actually aberrations.

But it always comes down to the specific GSD itself.  There are secondary showline breeders that have roach free, completely correct GSDs that should be high V or VA and will never get a second look due to not being inside the politically connected crowd that controls the "world market".  And the same for some secondary profung breeders that have GSDs who are correct to the standard in every way, have perfect working temperament and make great natural protectors and home companions as well as can work in professional roles, but are not prey driven crazy enough to win the top profung slots.  Both zuchtschau and profung have gotten way to crazed and overspecialized in their lust to win at all costs.  There are a lot of great looking WL or SL shepherds that have fabulous, normal GSD working temperament like Capt. Von Stephanitz expected, and yet these dogs always place a bit back in points because their owners have balance in their lives and interests in other things too and may not want to train every waking leisure moment.

I have known of folks who bought very correct, attractive, close to the standard dogs from Kirshental (and other SL breeders) who were great as home pets and companions and were naturally sane and protective without any Sch. training or any bitework.  There are quite a few GSDs like this from primary and secondary zuchtschau and profung breeders too, but one has to find them.  And there can be significant differences within each litter.  I don't like good looking prey driven only WL aberrations anymore than I dislike ugly, distorted SL aberrations with good temperament. I prefer a good looking WL or SL GSD that has the normal temperament Capt. Von Stephanitz expected.  Docile around family and other pets and farm animals and having pronounced defense when appropriate, and able to work in multiple tasks such as herding or guarding.  I have had both WL and SL with great temperment and both looked good and were great family pets.

To my mind a "beauty" is reflected in the working ability and character.

If you ask me what is good looking in a GSD my list would include types of drive, learning rate, degree of nerve, ability to dissect and understand subtle differences in stimulus etc....

Color, bone, angles, head shape and LEAST OF ALL COLOR - are meaningless to  me when it comes to GSD.

Some breeds are all about looks - those are the "bad" breeds.

A great dog can not be ugly.

A rotten nerved GSD without great working ability can NOT be good looking.

One can't tell the beauty of GSD by looking at a picture.

JMO

"A great dog can not be ugly."

Uh, yes it can.

I think it's entirely possible to have a dog with great working ability be physically ugly and incorrect for it's breed standard.

"A rotten nerved GSD without great working ability can NOT be good looking."

Now this I agree with as that personality takes away from the looks/expression/physical presence of a dog.

"take this trouble for me, make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim"  
 

just a little quote by some guy named Max somethingorother.

john (guess you know which side of the fence i am on)

  John

form follows function...work.

~Cate

Ohhhhhh boy do I look forward to next few years. You'll see some show dogs that work.

Out of curiosity, how many of the anti-showline camp have ever taken a showline dog and titled it? Not trying to be hostile, just an honest question. I've always felt blanket statements of any kind are the result of lacking personal experience. I would love to see more excellent working line enthusiasts rise to the challenge, pick yourself out a nice showline dog, and treat like your working line dogs.

For example, I would never say all working dogs are ugly with bad structure, because that's ridiculous. I have seen many gorgeous working dogs I would take home with me any day. To say no show dog can work is equally closed minded.

TessJ10, I was part of that conversation more than once. I have also brought up and named names of many working policeK9 I know that come from showlines.  I personally just dont care to compromise. I can have a dog that is beautiful and also works, if I'm picky enough when I buy, and consistent enough when I train.

Well I would be uncertain why you would bother to title a show dog, for all the reason listed above, its like taking a racing car to car show. Made to work not for show.  I have AKC titled dogs before and it did no take me long to realize thaq was a joke.     I dont remember anywhere in Max's definition anywhere about having pumpkin heads, weak pasturens, dragging hips, no drive, scared of its own shadow.  Show dogs show,  working dogs DO!!!!  The working dog is a like a truck, all the chrome in the world will not make it pull anymore.  Show people are on a quest to riun the breed in the name of thier OWN vanity.  Not to be hatefull however, the majority of the show people I have met are very self-centered, obnoxious people, the majority of working dog people are much more about the dog and friendly. Always exception, thats the rule from my experience

i am not anti-showline.  i just want a dog that has a strong desire to work.   not one that i have to entice off the couch, out the door, into the car, out of the crate and then try to make it happy enough to work for me.

KC,  will we see these show dogs at the national events, not counting the seiger show?  if so, Wonderful !  

My first dog was a show dog,  Draco vom Haus Berg, out of Vimo vom Fiemereck (sp?).   not enough drive for me.  spoiled me for life.  i keep telling myself that if i ever find a strong show dog i would work it.  havent found it yet.  havent looked hard either, it is much easier to find the type of dog I like in the working line.  

So, we end up where we always do.  it is a matter of likes and dislikes.  

john