The HERDING Thread..... - Page 1

Ok, as everyone can tell, I am curently really excited about doing herding with my pup!!

Sooooooo, I wanted to create a Herding thread for any herding talk; questions; sharing experiences; etc.

For example, I can share that I am in weekly herding lessons with my 9 month old DDR bred pup.

Yesterday, we had another lesson. She was much calmer in the pen and not as "hot" for the livestock.  We worked on being introduced to the "out" and the "walk up" as we put sheep in corner and held then released.  Still working on the "get around".

The trainer also had me work her experienced sheep dog (Belgian Terv) to be able to experience where I need to be and why by using a dog that is very well trained. That was pretty dang awesome!!!  Amazing to see the finished product!! For anyone that rides horses, I could compare it to using a schoolmaster!! 

Please feel free to share, ask questions, or just talk herding!!!

Sara

I do have a question...does anyone know if all dogs that can do course A can do Course C and vice versa?  Or, could a HGH do Course A?

How hard is it to do both?  Do you need to completely retrain one over the other or can a dog still do both courses simultaneously?

It would appear a dog needs more drive to do course A (in my pathetically limited experience). Is this correct?

Thanks,
Sara

Sara,

I would suggest that you view several herding trials to get an idea about both A-course and C-course. At the very minimum please view the AKC herding rule book which is available on-line. 

A HERDING capable dog can complete ANY course - however, some courses are are easier for some herding breeds than others. For example, a Corgi would have difficulty with the outrun required for a B-course or for the tending required for a C-course. This does not mean that they could not do it. 

Many GSD have successfully competed in A-course, however, the breed was used in Germany as a tending dog, thus C-course uses the inherent talents of GSD and other tending style breeds.

The training involved for each course is different - until your dog understands what the job of herding is, any training you do is not necessary course specific.  Your instructor should be able to better inform you.

About your mention of drive - you are misusing this term. Herding is the instinctual use of several drives (prey, pack, fight) which are expressed under the control of the shepherd. A herding capable dog has a balance of these drives which are directed toward an expressed behavior.

HGH is a German herding title. To earn this title, a dog herds a flock of at least 200 sheep through a complex course.  An HGH title is comparable to a SchIII title. Just as a SchIII dog can do novice obedience, an HGH dog can do Course A. The question becomes Why would one bother?

Respectfully,

Kate

Hi, Kate!  Thanks for the discussion!!

Yes, I have seen both course A and course C training. A local GSD offers Course C training but I chose Course A.

From my limited knowledge, it seems the courses require different things to me. My dog has an instinct to fetch and drive and not so much to run a border. I don't know why.  She shows no interest in running a boundary line. But, has shown great interest, focus, and intensity in moving stock while still showing control.

I am curious if the GSDs I see running a border have an instinct to fetch and drive as well.  It seems to me that they are just being taught to hold a boundary line in course C (not HGH). But, I admit my knowledge is limited.  I have seen what appears to be a path created for the dogs around where the sheep are held. The dogs are trained to stay in path created, correct?  I ask as I remember astrictly American showline breeder putting HT and PT titles on her dogs via course C and telling me it was "a joke" and any dog can do it.  So, I have limited knowledge and ask.

But, I have also heard of dogs that do both and I was wondering if they can do both simultaneously or must one training method replace the other?

Is it possible to train a dog with no herding instinct to hold a border? Is it possible to train a dog with no herding instinct to gather and move sheep? I don't know the answer.  

But, I do have an interest in the genetic instinct of the GSD to herd. Thus, my curiosity is to know if a herding dog is herding from genetics versus training.

Plus, Course A seemed more practical to me as if I got sheep for my farm I would need a dog that could gather and drive them and not run a border as I have fencing.

HGH training is beyond my scope as only NY and NJ offer it (in terms of closest location).  I do know all about HGH! Very cool stuff!! 

Also, were all GSDs trained in boundary style? What about the East German dogs? I am wondering if there was less land and the East Germans selected dogs that could fetch and drive versus hold a boundary line. But, this is purely conjecture!!!

Do you herd and title your dogs in trials? If so, I would love to hear your experiences (training methods, time frames, challenges)!! So, please..... do share and thanks again for the discussion!!!

Sara

Hello all

Yes, GSD's can do all the courses. A good friend of mine has put a WtCH on her GSD last year and is now working on AKC "A" I think. My Breeder, Val Manning, has all kinds of information on her website: http://www.ranchoterranorte.com/

I am fortunate that I have one of her dogs, we are just now starting our herding journey together.

I do herding with my youngest dog - she's an absolute whiz at it. we don't do the HGH or AKC type herding. I work her with Border Collies and Aussies and she has learned their type of herding. It's quite different than the HGH. They don't really patrol borders, it's more staying in one place until told to go left or right. They also, for the most part, not allowed to grip the sheep. In a trial that's a big no-no. They are expected to retrieve the flock from a long distance and move them thru a series of gates (middle, left, right), move them into a holding area, split a number of sheep out of the flock, and then move the flock into the holding pen. My girl just lit up the first time she saw sheep (at 10 months). She got her first title at a year.

I do the same thing as flygirl. My GSD bitch (WGWL) thinks she's a Border Collie and works very similar to one - only not as fast and flighty as some of the BCs can be.

I think it's a blast! I only wish the lessons were cheaper ... we'd be doing it several times a week if we could afford it!