HDZW - Page 1

Can anyone tell me how this really works. Does the SV actually set the number for any particular dog? I have heard that once the number is set, it can only go down. Is that true? Or is there a potential that the value goes up? Whom does one approach to find out the HDZW? Can one trust advertisements of certain breeders? Is there anywhere one can look this up? What effect does HD Fast Normal have on the HDZW? Does anyone still breed to dogs with Noch zu gelassen if the HDZW is under 100? Alot of questions. Anyone know to whom I can pose them? Sunshine

The "ZW" number is recalculated every three months. It is a complicated mathematic calculation wich takes into account the hip results of ancestors, siblings, and most importantly, the offspring. That is the reason the number can change, in both directions. You can check that number by clicking on the upper left "HD-ZW Search" right here. It can be very slow and sometimes, the connection fails. You can go directly to the SV's website and enter the dog's name right there. Unfortunately, only dogs which were bred in Germany and registered with the SV are included in that database. Our U.S. bred dogs are not in there, even when registered with USA. Chris

Under that system, when a litter is planned and bred the puppies start with a certain ZW-number. At maturity, if a puppy receives a-normal, his number goes down, a-fast normal either stays the same or goes up a bit. A-noch zugleassen can go up by 10 or more. How good is this system? I don't know. A few years ago, when it was introduced breeders and dog people in Germany were complaining about it. Now, they got used to it and abide by it. What still bothers me is that the a-fast normal or a-noch zugelassen puppy has a higher number than the one where no x-ray was ever submitted. Thes might have ended up in pet homes, were sold overseas, or had severe dysplasia. If I had my puppy x-rayed and it came back as sever, I would not submit it. Especially in Germany, there besides the severe cases now also the moderate ones get publsihed in the SV magazine. No breeder is happy to see his dog in there. So, the "ZW" is certainly not completely accurate, just another (excellent) tool. Chris

I apologize for the typos, should have run spell check, but it is 11:00 p.m. EST and I am tired. Sorry, Chris

You know what it is all about, Chris. But would you consider the X-ray of the breeding partners first or go by the HDZW value? Would you ever consider A Fast Normal bred with A Fast Normal or would that be too risky? Would the HDZW override this because the value of both dogs is under 200? One thing is the mathematics, the other is the actual X-ray result of the breeding partners. It is most certainly confusing to the lay-person. Is there anywhere one can look this up without acquiring a Doctors' Degree beforehand? Hmmmm. Mumbo jumbo or actual proven basis? I would like to know how I can know what we are talking about here. I thought I was getting into a sport, wound up in a canine genetics course and am beginning to understand why this is all so fascinating. Sunshine at moonshine

Yes the HDZW helps, As it shows which dogs produce more tan average bad hips when their number stays high or rises, a female is different as its very difficult to get her nr down. But as we all know nothing is fool proof.

Sunshine, Many of the answers to your questions have already been done. Just run a pedigree check here on the database and you will see many breeders breeding a3 dogs, you will see VA dogs with ZW scores over 100. There have been some previous posts on the subject here also. The posts were enlightining. When asked the type of questions you asked; I often refer people to look at Ursus Batu. No doubt one of the most influential dogs in GSD history. Look at what breeders did to produce him. Hobby was a1, his parents were BOTH a3. Lok att he motherline also. What's there hip wise. Point is, hip production is an important consideration but many would agree the overall dog should still be the focus.

a few lines with low numbers are Michelstädter Rathaus and Kahler Heide i am at a loss for the dog i am thinking of... which is not normal for me to forget.. but i am late for school so gotta go will write it when i get back lol regards, Dawnmarie

Sunshine, I have bred over 30 litters so far and currently expecting litters No. 31 and 32. Oh yes, I have bred to A-fast normal dogs and I have also bred to a-noch gelassen (Wanko vom Lippischen Norden). Jeck vom Noricum was a-noch zugelassen. Like every breeder, I had some incidences. My husband and I had once tried to put it into a statistic and came up with only 5 %. That sounds good, right? But it is probably higher since here in the U.S. most puppies are sold into pet homes and you never hear from them again unless they are extremely sever. The ZW does not override the x-ray, but rather works hand in hand. Sometimes you have to rely on the x-ray because the ZW is not available (foreign dogs, not enough offspring etc.) In a litter, no two dogs will produce the same, that goes for hips, too. I have heard of females (and some stud males, too) who had one dysplastic litter after the other, but they had a-normal. Also, I wish the SV would change their wording. Some people use the term a1, a2,a3 already. But what is wrong with a-fast normal? Just the wording. They have three grades of certification, just like OFA with their excellent, good, and fair. Would you also stay away from OFA good to OFA good? N0? What about OFA fair? I have to admit I probably would not buy a female with a-noch zugelassen, unless she is an older excellent producer with a track record for good hips. Chris

Thanks to you all for responding and trying to help me through this. I will write the SV and see what they have to say to help me further. The reference to Ursus is interesting. Judging from the response of my query. . . HDZW is less interesting than Terrible Experience. Hope you all have a nice weekend. Sunshine