GSDs in the German Press - Page 6

Keith,
I always appreciate your posts and point of view.  I respect your opinion and enjoy reading your posts.  I try to avoid "Monday morning quarterbacking" other Officers.  This got the better of me.  I can only go by Hans' version of the story and accept it as factual since he said he called another handler in the area.  If that is the situation; the dog engaging a running Officer that got in the way,  well take the bite until the handler takes the dog off.  The Hospital report mentioned puncture wounds to the bicep.  A dog bite is usually not the end of the world.  If the Handler is present, holster your gun and grow a pair.  I am in no way faulting your friend or comparing an "oblivious" handler to a handler who is trying to get his dog off.  Obviously there is a training and handling issue.  The dog and handler needed to be trained better and the Officer who got bit needed to be trained better.  I was bitten three times by one of our K-9's on my right arm and elbow and the handler was completely oblivious.  The first two bites were not damaging the third was very serious.  The aggression in the dog had really escalated and I felt his canine make contact with the nerve and bone in my elbow.  Quite a good use of a pressure point.  My right arm went numb and I told the handler "your dog is really biting me."  The handler still wasn't paying attention.  I grabbed the dog's collar with my left arm and twisted and carried the dog attached to my right arm to the handler and handed him his dog telling him to take his dog off.  That was a few years ago and I still remind the handler. 

There are some dogs that can do serious damage and if the handler is not nearby you have to protect yourself.  Based on the account of the Malinois in the article Sunsilver posted I didn't see that.  If I come off critical it is because I am.  I am very sensitive to cops doing stupid things.  Pistol whipping a dog is a stupid thing and potentially very dangerous, IMO.  I appreciate your post and I wasn't trying to paint with a broad brush but commenting specifically on that situation.  I really need to go back to not expressing what I really feel.  It is so much easier that way. 

Jim




 

If we are talking GSDs one possible factor that there seems fewer of them today is that less GSDs are registred each year compared to 10 years ago, almost 21000 was registred in germany in 2000, 2009 it was only about 15800. Also in sweden the numbers have going down much the last 20 years and are far from the numbers in the 1970-80s. Maybe not only a negative thing thou, better with quality before quantity.

I´m not so sure the malinois is better if we compare them to the better GSD breeders when it comes to suitability for service, but I assume it´s also a factor of selection and needs. That some mals or GSDs are biting the owners is not so strange, probably more than a few k9 handlers that have problem to handle a high drive dog in stessfull situations, especially if the dogs are very high in drive but not have the nerves to handle it. The lack of GSDs for policework is not only about the dogs I belive, it´s also not all breeders who want to sell good dogs to some green k9 handler for not so much money, and when the police gets a really good dog they also need to find the right handler for it. I think these are factors that are the same regardless if you live in germany/europe or in US.

"I really need to go back to not expressing what I really feel.  It is so much easier that way."

Please don't do that; your input here is very valuable!  I didn't mean to come off as overly-critical of your post as I think that your assessment of that situation, given the information available, was dead on and also agree that most incidents between officers and dogs are as you describe.

I, too, have been bitten...I lived!  In fact, I'll be attempting to help someone with a problem dog this weekend and based on what I know about the dog at this point, may very well get bitten in the process...but it's only a Cocker Spaniel...how bad could it be; right?  ;o) 

Keith,
I think you are dead on.  I just need to not comment on certain highly charged or controversial topics.  I very often hold back (believe it or not) and every now and then I probably say to much.  I had a gruff veteran Officer go to pet my dog one night while I was on the perimeter of a house waiting for a wanted subject to return home.  I told the Officer not to pet my dog right now as he may get bit.  The Officer replied "If your dog bites me I'll write the letter to the Chief explaining why I shot him."  I won't go into the details of my response....But the Officer understood the consequences that would occur if he considered that course of action again.  We get along fine now, and have a very clear understanding of what to do and what not to do if he gets bitten by any of our dogs. 

Johan,

You make some excellent points.  I agree that a suitable GSD can do as good a job as a Malinois for Police Work.  However, with our budget, testing and selecting dogs in the $6,000 to $7,000 price range I see more suitable Malinois and Dutch Shepherds for sale.  It is becoming really hard to find suitable GSD's in that price range.  I prefer GSD's for many reasons but must base my decision on the best dog for the job available at that time.  I find the fact that less dogs are registered to be fascinating.  Perhaps, that is a good thing.  The dogs we select are for Patrol and detection work, it is the Patrol side selection testing that eliminates the majority of potential candidates.  If I were a breeder and could sell a good dog to a sport or Conformation person for $x dollars why sell it to a vendor or Police  Dept for less than $x?

 Assume = Make ass out of u and me.
I would like to say one thing which we can learn from the story about Alameda accident. We must learn  not to build case on a news story or any hear say story. . It is natural tendency to "assume" what the blank spots in the story are. However "Assuming" will more often then not hurt  the innocent. 
  Here in AZ, several years ago, there was an  incident where City police K9 bit pregnant Hispanic woman. It sounds horrible enough at first and emotions went high, when just about anyone reads the former words their "assumptions" are going  rampant.
 However the story was like this. Suicidal man was standing  in the street pointing gun to his own head. Police are called including K9 unit already parked with k9 officer on the scene and dog was  left in the car, not too far away.
Another officer arrived on the scene and while exiting his vehicle he did not put it into park. His vehicle rolled and hit the K9 unit. The impact opened the door of the K9 unit vehicle. Dog ( Mali but that is not important in this case) jumped out . Nearest person was a pregnant women who was trying to leave the scene in fast pace. Dog zeroed on her and attacked her. 
K9 handler was alerted to the situation and got the dog off of her relatively fast. However there were some  injuries.
 Next day after the story broke out I was contacted by major Arizona newspaper and reporter asked me ( the dog training expert:)) to whom I would assign the blame. I said that I will talk to him only if he promises that he will publish what I am saying and publish it correctly. He assured me of that.
 Thus then  I have said that the blame should go to the officer who did not put the car in the park before he exited. Otherwise it was an accident and I have said that I would not blame the dog or his training. I clearly remember the reporter saying: " Really??!!"  Since that was not obviously   not sexy enough answer which he was looking for and the reporter tried to make me say that it was a vicious police dog and that he should be put down since no police dog should bite pregnant woman. I refused to corroborate such an idiotic story in no uncertain terms. I tired to explain how the dogs are trained to deploy from the car, but that was akin to throwing gravel on the wall with hope  to make stick. Needless to say, that they did not print my opinion and run with the vicious PoliceK9  biting innocent, Hispanic, pregnant woman story. (the story got some racial  undertone to it too.)Dog was a fine Police K9 and was going to be put down(!!!!) thanks to ASSUMPTIONS and pressure of the public based on idiotic news story, which was slanted to sell more newspapers ,...which it did. I was furious, but who would care about my emotions. Eventually the dog was prematurely retired in the home of his handler. Thanks God.
The pregnant woman got $300 000.00 +/-  to make her  go away.
 Thus I am big enemy of "ASSUMING". I am aware that I and we all assume and must assume in order to survive. But assuming is not giving us right passing definitive judgment. And I am not talking just about the topic of this thread here. 
Prager Hans

Slumdunc
Do you find GSD that are suitable for selection to be out of your price range or do you not even test them if they are out of the price range?

Im just wondering how many GSD you pass over if they are above the price range.

Do the vendors not want to drop their asking price?

Do you think the breeders are asking to much for their dogs.  or rather asking to much for a sub standard dog for the purpose you are looking for?

I can afford to buy a very good GSD in my country and look after it very well but i can definately not afford to buy a good GSD from the States and then still have to pay to ship it over.   For the price i would pay to buy a pup in the State and get it here i can buy 3 pups in my own country.

I know things are all relative.  I am just wondering whether you think if they dropped the prices of the dogs to be comparable to your price range you would be able to select more GSD?

Skylagsd,
There is a going market price for dogs in my area and currently the price we pay is between $6,000 and $7,000.  I do not beat up vendors on price and do not ask vendors to drop their price for me.  I negotiate on the quality of the dogs and realize that the dog vendors are business people and need to make a profit.  My goal is to get the best dog I can for the price, not save money.  If I was offered a fantastic dog for more money I could probably convince my PD to go higher.  Since I am not selecting paper clips, computers or office equipment we have some leeway.  You can not compare on paper a working dog to a PC which is available form many vendors.  So we have some room on price and I am not stuck with the lowest priced vendor. 

Some vendors have dogs with different price ranges and we generally stick in our price range and evaluate those dogs.  We buy imported dogs with the exception of my dog which was bred in the US.  I donated my GSD to my Department.  My GSD would easily be out of their price range if they wanted to buy him, he was worth well more than $7,000 at 2 years old.  I have only seen one GSD which I feel is comparable and we bought him, that was 4 years ago.  Super dog and doing a super job. 

If we were willing to spend considerably more than the going rate or if prices of GSD's came down I think we could find more suitable GSD's for our needs.  Currently, we have no trouble finding suitable dogs in that price range, they are generally not GSD's these days.  Which is unfortunate for a GSD lover like me.  But, I love all dogs especially working dogs that can do the job.