GSDs in the German Press - Page 5

Hans,
The thread was about the article that was printed in the German magazine and it referenced one German Police agency switching to malinois and a quote for Raiser, as well as Wayne Curry.  My posts have been my experience that it is getting hard to find good GSD's for Police work. 

Let me take back the statement "everyone imaginable" and replace it with your quote of people bitten by Malinois:
Malinois due to their high prey are famous for biting their handlers, fellow officers, sport judges, trainers, and kennel personnel and family members, friends visiting the household and innocent bystanders. Because of that millions were and are paid in settlements by LE agencies all over USA

You are correct I went to far.  I should have left it at Malinois are famous for biting their handlers, fellow officers, sport judges, trainers, kennel personnel, family members, friends visiting the household and innocent bystanders. Not everyone imaginable!    Can we say anyone that comes in contact with them? 

Maybe you should be getting different malinois if that is your experience with them.  It is not my experience with them, but I have only seen, tested and decoyed for them.  

Where are the malinois people when you need them?  Too bad Phil is gone.  It must be a cold day in Hell when I am defending the Malinois to GSD people. 


I agree statistics are not the issue here, but when you reference millions in law suits brought on by Malinois K-9's biting people it is a logical question to ask for your source.  When it comes to Police and K-9 liability I like to have the facts.  It is very pertinent for me.   

I will say that some Malinois are over the top and are not suitable for many situations.  I will say that the training has to be diffferent and the handler vigialant, as I have said earlier. However, it is easy to find a clear headed Malinois for sport or Police Work that can and does do an excellent job. 

Shall we agree to disagree?  I do not have a "dog in this fight."  I know where to go to find a great GSD for myself and really good dogs for work.  What ever the breed may be.   

Jim

   


  

 

I think this whole debate is garbage.  Sorry but it is useless and is nothing but a vicious cycle.

This is all about personal preference.  Your or mine personal preference doesn't mean that better than.
You don't have to like someone's personal preference.  Their personal preference doesn't mean that what they chose to go with is better than another breed.  You can find good dogs and shit dogs everywhere.

This is like the whole Microsoft (PC) vs. Apple (Mac) debate and which one is better.  USELESS and time wasting argument.  One isn't better than the other, it is all about personal preference and what you feel more comfortable working with.  I'm a die hard PC person and want nothing to do with a over priced Mac.  Does this mean that PC's are better??  No.  It just means I have my preference.  I realize that Macs are good and for many people they are a better choice to roll with when it comes to buying one.
The same goes for GSD's and Mals.

At the end of the day as long as the dog can perform the work to a high standard we should all be happy.

Im not a Mal person as I just don't find them appealing but I won't say they are horrible maniacs and what not.  I hate met 2 from owners that compete at a National and World level and they were some really nice dogs and was the opposite of what I always heard about them.  I wont bash one breed b/c I have a preference for one.  I hate it when WGWL people bash Czech dogs as a way to make WGWL look better.  Same shouldn't be done when it comes to Mals & GSD's.

The issue is about what is happening to the breed. That is certainly not garbage, IMHO

If that is the case, then this has strayed off topic.
If you are talking about "the breed" then the discussion really needs to be about first breeders & 2nd, why end users are requesting such extreme drives. (ie prey)

Jim, a shame about the dog being shot. Since the dog had recently been paired with a new handler, I would guess the handler was partly at fault for the dog getting out of control.

And there are far, far too many dogs being shot by police officers these days. I know when there are times that it has to be done, but many cases (like this one) are hard to justify. Officers need to be edcuated in how to handled aggressive dogs.

I have seen a lot of videos of K9s refusing to 'aus' when told to. I also heard of a man attacked by a police dog suing the department because the dog continued to bite him after officers were on the scene. The cops even yelled at him for not staying still as they tried to cuff him. I imagine that's a hard thing to do when you're writhing in pain because a dog is chomping on your ankles! I saw the video, and he was not resisting arrest, merely begging the officers to get the dog off him.


How common is this sort of thing? Would a dog that refused to 'aus' still be accepted as a K9 patrol dog in the police departments you're familiar with? 

Jim , 
 I am not necessarily talking about my Malinois. I am a dog trainer thus I am talking about Malis which I have encountered during training  for and with other people.
 As far as stats  go as I told you before,  you may  contact Terry Fleck:
http://www.k9fleck.org/index.html
If anybody can help you it would be him.

As far as Alameda accident goes I contacted a friend of mine who is a cop in Cali and the info I got is that   the dog was being deployed from a car via  remote car door opener to come to the handler or to attack the perpetrator ( not clear) and in the same moment the female officer run in the path of the dog. The dog redirected and bit this policewoman in upper arm. The K9 handler tried to command  "out"  the dog to release and dog did not respond really well thus the K9 handler was physically  getting the dog   off her. The female officer was swiping the dog on the head with butt of her gun. K9 handler was worried that he may get accidently shot thus he hit the ground. This happened 2-3 times. The female officer then shot the dog  of off her. She had minor bite and  3 minor punctures and scrape as the dog was probably already getting off. 
From this is obvious that this bite  was an accident and not a fault of the dog.
Prager Hans

Back to the topic,...
I have said before:
In order to produce good dogs you need to have people who want them. Thus the customer with the $$$ in his hand makes the breed. Breed can not exist if no one buys it.
Breeders can and should do more then just to breed good dogs. Breederof working GSD must educate the public of what the breed is all about and educate and influence other breeders and people who work with the breed. There is much more to it then breed good dogs. I know karma says that if you do good work eventually things will turn up right. Yes that is the truth, but part of the good work is to do more then just breed good dogs.

It is important to understand that the GS dogs as a breed can not stand on its own. It is wrong to be a purist and look at a breed as some separate and independent entity detached from the life. Breed is not about the breed itself. Breed of GSD is about reality of work they need to do for different people. GSDs are working dogs and they are here to work. That is a the purpose and reason for the breed. Life is not here for GSD but GSD is here for life.
Thus if I see that my breed is falling behind other breeds in serviceability I am concerned and I am trying to fix it.

Prager Hans

That is a shame... that is a shame.
Panic is the worst enemy in dog bites: I got bitten twice by a dog, once by a police dog (GSD) and once by a "dog" (rtw). Both times I was still.. hurt as hell, was very bad but both times I gave the dog nothing!..... the police dog did not out, he bit deeper with the officer's command (and I saw it with my eyes!!! I pretty much told my calf bye, bye as It felt the dog had bitten it off), he finally got body slammed and chocked off of my leg

But it is hard to explain bitten person to not move when obviously the police officer was whacking the dog with a gun! Panic.. sucks in dog bites, it causes more nasty injuries and feeds the dog!

P

Sunsilver,
You bring up so many things, many having been discussed here before on various threads.  Hans provided additional information about the incident which I guess shows it wasn't a crazy out of control malinois, but an idiot Police officer.  Sunsilver, if someone is hitting a Police Dog in the head should it let go?  Or should it stay in the fight?  The appropriate thing to do would have been to disarm the moron then take the dog off.  Any one hitting my dog with a firearm will wear the dog until the gun is safely away, then I will out my dog.  Not the dogs fault and he paid the price for it. 

I am a member of Terry Fleck's website, BTW. 

I agree, in principle, with your sentiment, Jim (as I normally do) but we should be careful not to paint the world with too wide a brush but to evaluate each situation based on the circumstances.  I am personally aware of a situation in which an officer here was forced to shoot a police dog that was attacking him and, based on his version of the events, I felt the action he took was warranted.  The incident involved a Dutchie that was recently deployed and the officer involved was a GSD owner with whom I was actively training at the time.  While I don't believe his experience with dogs is as extensive as yours, I can absolutely assure you that he is a dog lover, is in no way intimidated by big and/or agressive dogs, is someone familiar with and active in training biting dogs and gave the dog his arm and took several bites before he finally drew on the animal and shot it.  His version of the events indicated a poorly trained dog that was working its way up his arm trying to get to his neck and a handler who was oblivious to what his dog was doing.  That same handler was in the news a few months later for shooting a goose that he felt was threatening the dog that was killed's replacement.  Really...a goose?