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by Abby Normal on 26 June 2011 - 22:06
That's right Vixen.
'They' is a general reference term used once the subject has already been identified, and in fact I had already referenced China in the same sentence. It is not a derogatory term. I refer to the UK and then go on to use the term 'we' rather than continually reference the UK or Britain, it is not necessary. We do this, they do that - normal language patterns. It is does not indicate any particular line of thinking. If you are assuming that it is an indication of personal dislike or xenophobia you really have totally misunderstood the content of this thread. China is being pressured quite heavily by the western world to address the issue of animal welfare, by many governments. Are all these governments xenophobic. No of course not. What they want to see is an end to horrific cruelty, as do I.
But again, this thread began with a simple question. It went along the lines of would you export a dog to China, a country with no animal welfare laws, and then an example of what happens to some dogs in China. It is a hypothetical question for me also, as I do not breed and so it won't arise. However, I can still answer that categorically no, I would not, not at any price.
But that is MY answer, everyone is free to answer that question according to how they personally feel, that's the wonder of free speech. What would be your answer DD ?
'They' is a general reference term used once the subject has already been identified, and in fact I had already referenced China in the same sentence. It is not a derogatory term. I refer to the UK and then go on to use the term 'we' rather than continually reference the UK or Britain, it is not necessary. We do this, they do that - normal language patterns. It is does not indicate any particular line of thinking. If you are assuming that it is an indication of personal dislike or xenophobia you really have totally misunderstood the content of this thread. China is being pressured quite heavily by the western world to address the issue of animal welfare, by many governments. Are all these governments xenophobic. No of course not. What they want to see is an end to horrific cruelty, as do I.
But again, this thread began with a simple question. It went along the lines of would you export a dog to China, a country with no animal welfare laws, and then an example of what happens to some dogs in China. It is a hypothetical question for me also, as I do not breed and so it won't arise. However, I can still answer that categorically no, I would not, not at any price.
But that is MY answer, everyone is free to answer that question according to how they personally feel, that's the wonder of free speech. What would be your answer DD ?
by edidasa on 27 June 2011 - 00:06
I'm all for exporting to China.
Maybe it'll balance the trade surplus... ha!
Having worked (with dogs) and lived in china, there ARE people who eat dogs, yes. But there are also MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people that care for dogs just the same, if not more than the 'western world'.
I think a documentary that highlights cruelty in China, although maybe true, is a poor representation of the people there or even the culture.
I know people who have and would eat dogs, but they love their HUSKY more than ANYTHING else in the world. They buy the best food, provide the best medical care, training etc. etc. etc. a lot of things which many people in the UK would NOT do.
Besides, the idea is that the dog helps the blood flow or something, to keep them warm in the winter.... =/
Cruelty to animals is, I guess, in every country. There will always be people who don't care for animals as much as other people would.
But it's sad when China gets labelled. I personally know A LOT of people who are trying to fix things in China, not because of pressure or whatever politicall ball-bags, it's because they care for the animals, that's it.
Have you seen this: http://www.odditycentral.com/news/chinese-woman-adopts-1500-stray-dogs-and-200-cats.html ?
Just a SMALL headline that probably didn't make UK media, and there are probably 1000's (+)? more of these organisations in China.
The numbers are just TOO HUGE in china, it's almost incomprehensible the scale of everything.
But again, YES, I would export dogs to China, sure, the 'regulations' aren't as clear as it is in the 'western world' - but I know the majority of people there would probably take better care of a dog than some people would in the UK.
Maybe it'll balance the trade surplus... ha!
Having worked (with dogs) and lived in china, there ARE people who eat dogs, yes. But there are also MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people that care for dogs just the same, if not more than the 'western world'.
I think a documentary that highlights cruelty in China, although maybe true, is a poor representation of the people there or even the culture.
I know people who have and would eat dogs, but they love their HUSKY more than ANYTHING else in the world. They buy the best food, provide the best medical care, training etc. etc. etc. a lot of things which many people in the UK would NOT do.
Besides, the idea is that the dog helps the blood flow or something, to keep them warm in the winter.... =/
Cruelty to animals is, I guess, in every country. There will always be people who don't care for animals as much as other people would.
But it's sad when China gets labelled. I personally know A LOT of people who are trying to fix things in China, not because of pressure or whatever politicall ball-bags, it's because they care for the animals, that's it.
Have you seen this: http://www.odditycentral.com/news/chinese-woman-adopts-1500-stray-dogs-and-200-cats.html ?
Just a SMALL headline that probably didn't make UK media, and there are probably 1000's (+)? more of these organisations in China.
The numbers are just TOO HUGE in china, it's almost incomprehensible the scale of everything.
But again, YES, I would export dogs to China, sure, the 'regulations' aren't as clear as it is in the 'western world' - but I know the majority of people there would probably take better care of a dog than some people would in the UK.
by Abby Normal on 27 June 2011 - 09:06
I disagree that it is sad when China gets labelled, it is imperative that it does. That is the ONLY WAY that change will be brought about and pressure brought to bear on their government. You don't change something by ignoring it.
A few individuals saving a few dogs in the vastness of China is such a drop in the ocean that it's just peeing in the wind. Changing the laws and providing animal welfare legislation would support and encourage those in China who do want to end the cruelty, and ultimately allow welfare institutions to flourish.
They buy the best food, provide the best medical care, training etc. etc. etc. a lot of things which many people in the UK would NOT do.
Things that some people in every country would NOT do. Last time I checked though it wasn't considered acceptable to skin a dog alive for meat in the UK?
but I know the majority of people there would probably take better care of a dog than some people would in the UK.
How do you know this, on what evidence is your statement made? Especially given the scale of the population? You are talking how many individuals? is it a representative sample of the population on which to base such a judgement?
It's a peculiar mindset where a chinese family may love their husky and provide all the best medical care and food etc, and yet happily support the cruelty that underpins the selling of dogs for meat by purchasing dog meat themselves. They are giving their approval of it and actively contributing to the continuance of it. Maybe you should visit your friends in China and go dog meat shopping with them (go to the markets) and then try and understand why it is they can pamper their husky but happily buy meat from dogs which have suffered the most unbelievable cruelty. If people who allegedly love dogs will do this, it proves a clear need for a requirement to make the consumption of dog meat illegal, if even someone that loves dogs will continue to eat it, with full knowledge of what happens to those dogs. It does not denote a concern for the welfare of dogs (animals) in a global sense, and that is what needs to be changed in order for such horrific cruelty to stop.
But again, YES, I would export dogs to China, sure, the 'regulations' aren't as clear as it is in the 'western world' Just a bit of an understatement. There aren't ANY animal welfare laws or regulations, period.
However if you would export a dog to China that's fine. My view is different and I most certainly would not.
A few individuals saving a few dogs in the vastness of China is such a drop in the ocean that it's just peeing in the wind. Changing the laws and providing animal welfare legislation would support and encourage those in China who do want to end the cruelty, and ultimately allow welfare institutions to flourish.
They buy the best food, provide the best medical care, training etc. etc. etc. a lot of things which many people in the UK would NOT do.
Things that some people in every country would NOT do. Last time I checked though it wasn't considered acceptable to skin a dog alive for meat in the UK?
but I know the majority of people there would probably take better care of a dog than some people would in the UK.
How do you know this, on what evidence is your statement made? Especially given the scale of the population? You are talking how many individuals? is it a representative sample of the population on which to base such a judgement?
It's a peculiar mindset where a chinese family may love their husky and provide all the best medical care and food etc, and yet happily support the cruelty that underpins the selling of dogs for meat by purchasing dog meat themselves. They are giving their approval of it and actively contributing to the continuance of it. Maybe you should visit your friends in China and go dog meat shopping with them (go to the markets) and then try and understand why it is they can pamper their husky but happily buy meat from dogs which have suffered the most unbelievable cruelty. If people who allegedly love dogs will do this, it proves a clear need for a requirement to make the consumption of dog meat illegal, if even someone that loves dogs will continue to eat it, with full knowledge of what happens to those dogs. It does not denote a concern for the welfare of dogs (animals) in a global sense, and that is what needs to be changed in order for such horrific cruelty to stop.
But again, YES, I would export dogs to China, sure, the 'regulations' aren't as clear as it is in the 'western world' Just a bit of an understatement. There aren't ANY animal welfare laws or regulations, period.
However if you would export a dog to China that's fine. My view is different and I most certainly would not.
by jeysalim on 27 June 2011 - 15:06
Yes, i 100% agree with edidasa abt exporting to China too. Only those who has been out of their own country and have seen the world would understand other cultures. Those whose life only revolve around youtube would stay as what they are today and making statements of racism and discrimination of other countries....
“Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason.”
Abraham J. Heschel quotes (Jewish theologian and philosopher, 1907-1972)
by Vixen on 27 June 2011 - 17:06
Jeysalim, Is that rather a pompous statement to make? The Official Organisations that campaign relentlessly around the World, to battle against cultures that accept inhumane cruelty to animals, are they perhaps not worldly-wise? Or maybe these Organisations completely revolve around u-tube? Are they mistaken and wasting their time? - that the cruelty and in-humane practices do not actually exist or need addressing?!
I enjoy humankind from anywhere in the World. An individual's intelligence, knowledge, understanding and compassion for life, does not surely rely on a Passport?
Would you suggest that perhaps the Site ascertains who has travelled outside their particular Country??? Or maybe even include visiting areas within a 5 mile radius of where they live? Equally, question Members' use of u-tube? Plus any News media! Should we go so far as to introduce a MENSA test before membership? (By the way, how would we measure love and compassion)? On this Web Site, we do not know about the lives of each other. Who we are, what we do or have done, our background and current situation.
The issue I have is where cruelty and inhumane treatment is ignored, or considered acceptable towards any living creature!
Vixen
I enjoy humankind from anywhere in the World. An individual's intelligence, knowledge, understanding and compassion for life, does not surely rely on a Passport?
Would you suggest that perhaps the Site ascertains who has travelled outside their particular Country??? Or maybe even include visiting areas within a 5 mile radius of where they live? Equally, question Members' use of u-tube? Plus any News media! Should we go so far as to introduce a MENSA test before membership? (By the way, how would we measure love and compassion)? On this Web Site, we do not know about the lives of each other. Who we are, what we do or have done, our background and current situation.
The issue I have is where cruelty and inhumane treatment is ignored, or considered acceptable towards any living creature!
Vixen
by steve1 on 27 June 2011 - 18:06
I know that some German Shepherds have been sold to China for anything from 10.000 dollars to 35.000 dollars, I do not think these dogs have gone there for meat or for the pups to be from them sold for meat, It is unfair to tar the whole race of people with the same brush, There must be caring dog owners in that country the same as in the USA or Europe,
What the resturants do is another thing and by the same token how do you know what meat you are eating in Chinese Resturants in the USA,
I know one place when i was a kid kept Rats in Cages in the Back yard behind the resturant, Any guesses what they were used for,
OH' and in a later stage of my life i to ate rats to eat, That was all we could catch at the time
Steve1
What the resturants do is another thing and by the same token how do you know what meat you are eating in Chinese Resturants in the USA,
I know one place when i was a kid kept Rats in Cages in the Back yard behind the resturant, Any guesses what they were used for,
OH' and in a later stage of my life i to ate rats to eat, That was all we could catch at the time
Steve1
by Abby Normal on 27 June 2011 - 21:06
Jeysalim, if you want to trade quotes, I prefer this one:
“One can measure the greatness and the moral progress of a nation by looking at how it treats its animals”
Mahatma Gandhi
You clearly do not understand the terms racism and discrimination. I have little time for people who would bring out the accusation of racism, hatred and discrimination at the first hint of criticism of a person or nation. If you disagreed with what happened in Tianenmen Square did that make you a racist?
Your statements about others not having been to other places in the world and relying on You Tube is patently ill informed. If you had read the thread properly, you would already see that my partner has travelled to China (and not just the bits they would prefer you to see), along with many other countries with very different cultures including Africa, Indonesia, Egypt.......... so your assumptions are seriously flawed. Beware the dangers of imposiing your own limitations on others.
Steve1
I agree that initially this would be the case for high priced dogs (some have sold for much, much more than that. My concern is not now, when they are winning, but what happens when their career is over, and of the pups that have inevitably to go off as pets. Remember the dog referenced in the original statement was friendly, and so was likely a pet at some time. It isn't a case of tarring all with the same brush, we are talking an accepted cultural practice, even apparently by those who 'love' their own dog. If others don't share the concerns and think it won't happen that's fine. Me, no I wouldn't risk it. It's bad enough wondering what will happen to a pup in a country WITH animal welfare laws.
Interesting about chinese restaurants (I am in the UK). Here is a little story. I feed raw, and buy directly from a slaughterhouse, have done for years. There is a growing shortage of untreated tripe (the really stinky slimy stuff - the dogs love it). This is because it is being bought and exported to Eastern Europe and China. I have been told this by 2 slaughterhouses. I think it unlikely that I will ever eat chinese takeaway again, especially with your little tale as well. BTW that doesn't make me a racist, the east europeans and chinese are welcome to it, but it's just not for me.......
“One can measure the greatness and the moral progress of a nation by looking at how it treats its animals”
Mahatma Gandhi
You clearly do not understand the terms racism and discrimination. I have little time for people who would bring out the accusation of racism, hatred and discrimination at the first hint of criticism of a person or nation. If you disagreed with what happened in Tianenmen Square did that make you a racist?
Your statements about others not having been to other places in the world and relying on You Tube is patently ill informed. If you had read the thread properly, you would already see that my partner has travelled to China (and not just the bits they would prefer you to see), along with many other countries with very different cultures including Africa, Indonesia, Egypt.......... so your assumptions are seriously flawed. Beware the dangers of imposiing your own limitations on others.
Steve1
I agree that initially this would be the case for high priced dogs (some have sold for much, much more than that. My concern is not now, when they are winning, but what happens when their career is over, and of the pups that have inevitably to go off as pets. Remember the dog referenced in the original statement was friendly, and so was likely a pet at some time. It isn't a case of tarring all with the same brush, we are talking an accepted cultural practice, even apparently by those who 'love' their own dog. If others don't share the concerns and think it won't happen that's fine. Me, no I wouldn't risk it. It's bad enough wondering what will happen to a pup in a country WITH animal welfare laws.
Interesting about chinese restaurants (I am in the UK). Here is a little story. I feed raw, and buy directly from a slaughterhouse, have done for years. There is a growing shortage of untreated tripe (the really stinky slimy stuff - the dogs love it). This is because it is being bought and exported to Eastern Europe and China. I have been told this by 2 slaughterhouses. I think it unlikely that I will ever eat chinese takeaway again, especially with your little tale as well. BTW that doesn't make me a racist, the east europeans and chinese are welcome to it, but it's just not for me.......
by Donald Deluxe on 28 June 2011 - 02:06
"The Official Organisations that campaign relentlessly around the World, to battle against cultures that accept inhumane cruelty to animals, are they perhaps not worldly-wise?"
You mean like PETA and their endless propaganda videos about China? Let us know whether you still applaud their work after they get their agenda made law in your country and you are dragged before a judge and charged with animal abuse for publicly applying a leash correction to your GSD.
You mean like PETA and their endless propaganda videos about China? Let us know whether you still applaud their work after they get their agenda made law in your country and you are dragged before a judge and charged with animal abuse for publicly applying a leash correction to your GSD.
by Donald Deluxe on 28 June 2011 - 03:06
"If you disagreed with what happened in Tianenmen Square did that make you a racist?"
No, that would make him or her a critic of the Chinese government and the violent response of its state security apparatus to peaceful demonstrators. An entirely different thing than attacking an entire culture as you are doing.
No, that would make him or her a critic of the Chinese government and the violent response of its state security apparatus to peaceful demonstrators. An entirely different thing than attacking an entire culture as you are doing.
by missyjord on 28 June 2011 - 04:06
Interesting that no one mentioned the fate of a stray dog in China ... mass killings (in the thousands) of any and all dogs. Killed by way of being bludgeoned in the streets. Granted they "did it for the safety of the people " but was it right? How about when they killed EVERY dog within a certain vicinity? Door to door, killing every dog whether it was a pet, stray, or show dog. Your dog was vaccinated, a superb show dog, and pampered in the house, never outside without its owner; didn't matter it was still dead. That alone would be enough reason for me to not export. Good thing I'm a rescuer and not a breeder.
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