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by trac123 on 25 June 2011 - 08:06
My original statement and question was as follows:-
What is your opinion of breeders who export German Shepherds and other dogs to China and other countries who have no anti-cruelty laws to help protect animals
I agree with Donald Deluxe that cruelty occurs in many Western countries, not only to animals but to people too. Just because murder, rape and torture of people happens does not mean it is okay. We have laws which help to protect us and police to carry out the laws. My original question above is about exporting (and in many cases for huge somes of money) German Shepherds and other dogs to countries with NO LAWS TO PROTECT ANIMALS. The GSD bitch on UK TV was being skinned alive in public simply because there is a demand for it and it is deemed to be acceptable within the laws of that country. I could elaborate more on what was shown about street markets and what was for sale to the public but I have said enough.
by Vixen on 25 June 2011 - 09:06
Donald, I hope your quote: "LOL at this thread, and all the phony, self-righteous moralizing going on"
Is not being suggested of me (and I am sure others would feel likewise).
For myself, my thoughts and feelings on this subject are most certainly not phony, self-righteous or moralising!
Cruelty sadly happens everywhere. However, some cultures have very different views of animals. The treatment of them, with no concern for their physical, mental or emotional well-being. In certain Countries killing animals is the cheapest method possible - bludgeon, poison or for their personal preference to skin alive.
Every Country needs to address attitudes in all ways to dealing with animals, people and their pets, transportation of farming animals, the appropriate treatment in abatoirs, keeping of animals and their environment raised for food, etc....
So yes, even on our very doorstep we have cruelty to animals. However, some cultures do not even consider their treatment is necessarily cruel - having disregard for a living animal. Extremely inhumane actions to animals exist and is accepted. The Rescue and Help Organisations are saving, bringing relief, and educating.
Pedigree dogs and a high cost of buying a dog does not safeguard it from any inhumane attitude either.
Any subject relating to the atrocious treatment of any animal should never be considered lightly or ridiculed in any way. The vunerable rely on all of us. Whether we support Rescue Organisations, write to Governments, sign Petitions, buy products not tested on animals, or even buy free-range eggs! Or some may purely ensure that their own pets are taken care of with great respect and responsibility. But we should not scoff or be cynical of these issues. They deserve better - and we should be providing exactly that.
Vixen
Is not being suggested of me (and I am sure others would feel likewise).
For myself, my thoughts and feelings on this subject are most certainly not phony, self-righteous or moralising!
Cruelty sadly happens everywhere. However, some cultures have very different views of animals. The treatment of them, with no concern for their physical, mental or emotional well-being. In certain Countries killing animals is the cheapest method possible - bludgeon, poison or for their personal preference to skin alive.
Every Country needs to address attitudes in all ways to dealing with animals, people and their pets, transportation of farming animals, the appropriate treatment in abatoirs, keeping of animals and their environment raised for food, etc....
So yes, even on our very doorstep we have cruelty to animals. However, some cultures do not even consider their treatment is necessarily cruel - having disregard for a living animal. Extremely inhumane actions to animals exist and is accepted. The Rescue and Help Organisations are saving, bringing relief, and educating.
Pedigree dogs and a high cost of buying a dog does not safeguard it from any inhumane attitude either.
Any subject relating to the atrocious treatment of any animal should never be considered lightly or ridiculed in any way. The vunerable rely on all of us. Whether we support Rescue Organisations, write to Governments, sign Petitions, buy products not tested on animals, or even buy free-range eggs! Or some may purely ensure that their own pets are taken care of with great respect and responsibility. But we should not scoff or be cynical of these issues. They deserve better - and we should be providing exactly that.
Vixen
by Donald Deluxe on 25 June 2011 - 13:06
"We have laws which help to protect us and police to carry out the laws."
Yes, and in this country the laws that supposedly protect animals are routinely ignored and are given low enforcement priority by the criminal justice system - we'd rather devote police, prosecutor and court resources to filling our jails with low-level drug offenders. So IMO that doesn't exactly give us a superior position from which we can sneer at the Yellow Peril.
Yes, and in this country the laws that supposedly protect animals are routinely ignored and are given low enforcement priority by the criminal justice system - we'd rather devote police, prosecutor and court resources to filling our jails with low-level drug offenders. So IMO that doesn't exactly give us a superior position from which we can sneer at the Yellow Peril.
by ciara1 on 25 June 2011 - 16:06
I just read the origanal post, and have to say this.. NONE OF MY DOGS WILL BE SHIPPED TO CHINA!
by Abby Normal on 25 June 2011 - 22:06
Vixen, very nicely put. If caring deeply about the treatment of animals, and finding this particular form of treatment beyond abhorrent is self righteous and moralising, feel free to count me in as self righteous and moralising. Certainly not phony - why would you think any of these feelings expressed are 'phony'? Have you ever been to China and seen how animals are treated? My OH has, and I had the opportunity to go, but didn't want to, as I know it would be too upsetting for me.
I couldn't put it any better than vixen. We do have animal cruelty, but it is largely confined to 'individuals' it is not an accepted cultural attitude. We have organisations that will step in when these individuals carry out acts of cruelty - that is the whole point. No we can't save every animal that suffers abuse, few systems are 100% effective, but we can say that if we passed someone in the street beating an animal to death we would not walk on by and accept it as the 'norm'.
Animal welfare laws also govern how animals are slaughtered, and to ensure that they are treated humanely prior to slaughter, and that the slaughtering process is humane. No such laws in China. Anyone can dispose of any animal however they wish.
So actually I do think we are in a position to make a choice as to whether that is a country we would choose to send a dog to. I think we are even in a position to moralise as you put it.
You mention wealthy Chinese industrialists buying these dogs and that they would not end up as 'soup'. What happens when they are old and can't perform anymore, and what of the puppies that are being produced from these dogs that will not make a show grade and will be sold as 'pets'?
Also, you didn't answer the actual question DD - would you export a dog of yours to China knowing this? Or maybe you already have?
I couldn't put it any better than vixen. We do have animal cruelty, but it is largely confined to 'individuals' it is not an accepted cultural attitude. We have organisations that will step in when these individuals carry out acts of cruelty - that is the whole point. No we can't save every animal that suffers abuse, few systems are 100% effective, but we can say that if we passed someone in the street beating an animal to death we would not walk on by and accept it as the 'norm'.
Animal welfare laws also govern how animals are slaughtered, and to ensure that they are treated humanely prior to slaughter, and that the slaughtering process is humane. No such laws in China. Anyone can dispose of any animal however they wish.
So actually I do think we are in a position to make a choice as to whether that is a country we would choose to send a dog to. I think we are even in a position to moralise as you put it.
You mention wealthy Chinese industrialists buying these dogs and that they would not end up as 'soup'. What happens when they are old and can't perform anymore, and what of the puppies that are being produced from these dogs that will not make a show grade and will be sold as 'pets'?
Also, you didn't answer the actual question DD - would you export a dog of yours to China knowing this? Or maybe you already have?
by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 00:06
I'm not a dog breeder, so not a decision I will ever make. Do I think others should sell dogs to Chinese individuals? I suppose it would be reasonable to practice a bit more due diligence about the owner's plans for the animal than usual before doing so - but I would hope they wouldn't pre-judge and write off almost a quarter of the world's population as unfit to own a dog as you just have.
by Donald Deluxe on 26 June 2011 - 01:06
And in a modern world where people move from country to country, where does your anti-Chinese dog ownership stance end? At the Chinese border? Would you sell a dog to a Chinese immigrant in your own country? If not, how many generations of living in the West would you say it takes to correct their thinking and accept tradional Western mores about dogs - one, five, ten?
Do you feed your dogs any products containing beef? There are over one billion Hindus in the world who may think exactly the same about you as you do about the Chinese people and culture: to wit, that you're a barbarian or at least that you live in a society that widely accepts barbaric acts. Should they sell you a cow even if you profess to love them?
Are you still feeling as secure on that moral high ground you staked out above all those people in China, or do you think it's maybe a better idea to deal with people as individuals and see what they're each made of?
Do you feed your dogs any products containing beef? There are over one billion Hindus in the world who may think exactly the same about you as you do about the Chinese people and culture: to wit, that you're a barbarian or at least that you live in a society that widely accepts barbaric acts. Should they sell you a cow even if you profess to love them?
Are you still feeling as secure on that moral high ground you staked out above all those people in China, or do you think it's maybe a better idea to deal with people as individuals and see what they're each made of?
by Vixen on 26 June 2011 - 01:06
Nothing is 100% - Not even an individual. But attitudes towards life (animals) does vary enormously within cultures of different Countries.
Consider children - In England we have the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Children are still tragically and sadly abused, BUT the general attitude towards this abuse is of horror and disgust. But consider some Countries where young children are orphaned or abandoned running the streets ...... Orphanages where children are almost forgotten, their needs barely met. Left in cots, with little communication or affection. The attitude and culture of those Countries accepts these situations, offering little if any care and protection. This is tragically happening to people. What chance the animal kingdom!!
Supporting awareness of the needs and care of animals throughout the world should not be ignored, but addressed when and where possible. Rescue, Medication, and Education.
It is not a matter of condemning all people in one particular Country, but being aware of how pet animals are perceived? What is the general attitude of care and protection? So what would the chances and balance of percentage be for the future of a pet animal in certain parts of the World?
We should care, love and show compassion for all life, some sadly don't, and this scope can be larger in cultures where human and animal life are not upheld with importance, respect and compassion.
We can only do our individual part for the best and benefit of caring. Just throwing one pebble in the ocean will have a rippling effect.......
Vixen
Consider children - In England we have the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Children are still tragically and sadly abused, BUT the general attitude towards this abuse is of horror and disgust. But consider some Countries where young children are orphaned or abandoned running the streets ...... Orphanages where children are almost forgotten, their needs barely met. Left in cots, with little communication or affection. The attitude and culture of those Countries accepts these situations, offering little if any care and protection. This is tragically happening to people. What chance the animal kingdom!!
Supporting awareness of the needs and care of animals throughout the world should not be ignored, but addressed when and where possible. Rescue, Medication, and Education.
It is not a matter of condemning all people in one particular Country, but being aware of how pet animals are perceived? What is the general attitude of care and protection? So what would the chances and balance of percentage be for the future of a pet animal in certain parts of the World?
We should care, love and show compassion for all life, some sadly don't, and this scope can be larger in cultures where human and animal life are not upheld with importance, respect and compassion.
We can only do our individual part for the best and benefit of caring. Just throwing one pebble in the ocean will have a rippling effect.......
Vixen
by Pirates Lair on 26 June 2011 - 01:06
Not all Chinese eat dogs, not all North Americans eat horse meat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNkkvdNv9Io
Kim
by Chaz Reinhold on 26 June 2011 - 02:06
Very good point, Kim. And not all Canadians play hockey, but they talk funny, eh?
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