Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines - Page 9

I guess what subjects like this do, is give us an idea of those breeders who agree with our ideas on the correct GSD, so hopefully, if someone is going to buy a pup, they have an idea of who to talk to about it.

RS, you are always a voice of wisdom  though I know if I breed you won't buy from me 

In very distant past they shared the same genes. At the present they are divergent through, as Daryl said, selective breeding. When the breed was started, dogs of "similar" type were used to create one breed. The two lines now are more different than the breeds used originally. The border collie and Australian shepherd are an example of similar type, more so than the two gsd lines. This will be debated, I'm sure.

Joanro,

I don't have a scientific reply to your claim but I don't think it is true. Applying simple logic, what you and Daryl are saying is way off comprehension though I don't claim I understand genetics as much as Daryl dos and maybe not as much as you do too !!!

Ibrahim

I believe steve miller in wisc. has done some show/work crossing & liked what he got. I met him briefly at a mutual friends house in fla. That was in the mid 90's though when we had this discussion. Ibrahim- do you think the correct structure / trot of todays sl dogs gives them more endurance? IMO the most structurally sound dog with the most endurance I ever had was SchH 3 kkl2 FELS VON. DER SCHOPF. Very straight back leggy dog of 65cm. The pics of old gsd's IMO look like a robust malinois and I wouldn't doubt if both breeds derived from some of the same founding dogs as well as the dutch shepherd. I'm a wl entthusiast myself but I won't go bashing anyones preferance as I have seen some nice working sl's in my day. Ps. Blitzen.... I was at the trial in groveland last night as a spectator.I don't know you but was wondering if you were there. It was a nice turnout. Once again though if one wants to talk to someone who has probably more experience in both working and showlines than anyone on this board I would give steve miller a call in wisconsin. Kurt

Selective breeding is what has created the different breeds of dogs, even when they start out as the same. Look at a show line dog next to a work line dog, surely you can see the difference. Now look at whippet next to a greyhound (racing, not show), and other than size, they are more similar than the two GSDs, but they are two different breeds. In fact, I have seen small racing dogs and large whippet that were indistinguishable.

This last post I understand (selective breeding created different breeds).
What I don't understand is saying by selective breeding from different/various types of dogs the Captain created a single breed i.e the GSD and yet saying we can't do the same now and recreate one breed one GSD from both the show and work.

Ibrahim

vomeisenhaus,

I can accept to have several opinions on what the correct structure of the GSD is, some think the current fad of extremely angulated GSD, some think the straight level back that is moderately angulated etc,  but what we should not disagree on is the importance of efficient trot and correct structure for a GSD so it can perform. To claim that structure or trot is of no use and value and or to dismiss these two points from being major part of the breed standard and no need to take them into account and or to not select breed for them is what I think is wrong and not in accord with the breed standard.
Personally I like a GSD with beautiful structure, correctly angulated but not overly done, of strong temperament, reliable, protects its family. If the correct GSD should look like a malinois then maybe I am in the wrong breed, no offense here, I won't lie and say I don't care about the looks, I love what the GSD looks like, work or show, to me the noble look is there in both, no matter what Daryl says they're so different, I see they are one, in a black and white picture they are identical in expression and both think they are noble.

Ibrahim 

The best way to explain is this: The " Captain" and his few cohorts had a cohesive ideal and those few men made the selections for breeding to create the gsd from similar but different breeds. To try to combine, after many generations of separation through selective breeding the two types of gsd would mean hundreds or even thousands of breeders are going to be selecting. Therefore, the cohesiveness of ideal is not there. And the other very important issue at hand is that there is a reason the gsd has become divergent; aesthetic beauty for some and utilitarian use for others. Everyone would have to have the same ideal for the two lines to become one. Not likely to happen.

I have followed this thread with great interest. I currently work a Showline who is the first in UScA history to SG all three phases at the National level. He is not a "podium" level dog but solidly in the next tier as a working dog finishing 23rd at last year's Nationals with a 92 protection score; full, hard grips, handles the pressure phase very well, and excellent drive transition. Yet, there is nowhere to breed this temperament forward among the Showlines; his "relatively low" V9 Sieger show status assures that. We indeed do and will continue to have "two breeds" sharing the same name going forward. And, within that, to each their respective own.... Kevin Nance