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by snajper69 on 07 December 2009 - 14:12
That's a great idea Hans, I am in CT so AZ is just way too far for me (but if you guys choose to stream, I will be def. watching). What I am most interested in is learning about dogs that you should not line breed on. Every time I go through adds for new dogs I just start seeing more and more of crazy linebreeding going on, this is one reason why I never buy a dog that has linebreeding in first five generation, I just don't think some of those breeders have enough info (background) on the linbreed dogs to make educated decision. I remember you mentioning that Klara z PS had high incident of producing bad hips, how about Grim I heard some good and some bad with regards to linebreeding on him. Some people claim he produced one nutters, and other that he was great dog to lienbreed, which one is it? What is good and bad with regards to Grim. Myself seen quite few great dogs that had Grim in it's lines but always find them edgy, so I always assume that linebreeding would just bring more of that edgyines (don't know if that's the right world) out in the progeny. I heard that he produced bad hips is that correct? Thanks for your help.
Did the now so common practicing of liinebreeding, did more good than bad to the breed?
Did the now so common practicing of liinebreeding, did more good than bad to the breed?
by Kalibeck on 08 December 2009 - 01:12
It would be interesting to hear which were the most important good & bad traits of these important dogs from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Of course, it would be opinion, & countering opinions would be interesting to hear as well. This thread is a wonderful start...I'd like to hear more about Grim as well, as he's in my dogs' pedigrees. My dogs have that popular Lord/Grim combo...how does that add up? And what complements those lines? .....I have my opinion, but I'd love to hear from more qualified persons. Prager, what do you think about that cross....strengths...weaknesses....& where should it go next? Fascinating discussion, you could charge big $$$ for a seminar on this stuff! jackie harris
by Prager on 08 December 2009 - 03:12
Big Bucks, HUH.....May be a little . So that Jiri can get his airline ticket payed.
I am not big organizer....
Prager
I am not big organizer....
Prager
by 4pack on 08 December 2009 - 08:12
Is Jiri bringing any dogs/pups with him?
by Prager on 12 December 2009 - 03:12
by nanu on 13 December 2009 - 23:12
I'm glad I read this late.
all this talk about all these pedigrees and there is only one or two people on the thread that go out and see all these dogs!
Ok, pedigree research is only a small part of this picture. Gotta see the dogs work. Some of the dogs mentioned make terrible linebreedings and Hans is just too polite to tell. (thanks Hans)
Policia kennel sells non producers just like the Pohranicni Straze kennel did. Gotta have your connections to get anything good and that's just life.
My advice, get the breed books and review the breed surveys. Look at the progeny records. Not everything in Czech or Slovakia is "titled" but a lot of those great old guys produced a lot of police dogs especially before sport became so popular.
Homework! And go see a lot of dogs.
One cross that I was told never to make (this was in 1996) and crossed a Gomo von Schiefferschloss son to a Ciro z Pohranicni Straze daughter. I did it anyway. Alligators. Still have one of them.
So, there ya go!
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
all this talk about all these pedigrees and there is only one or two people on the thread that go out and see all these dogs!
Ok, pedigree research is only a small part of this picture. Gotta see the dogs work. Some of the dogs mentioned make terrible linebreedings and Hans is just too polite to tell. (thanks Hans)
Policia kennel sells non producers just like the Pohranicni Straze kennel did. Gotta have your connections to get anything good and that's just life.
My advice, get the breed books and review the breed surveys. Look at the progeny records. Not everything in Czech or Slovakia is "titled" but a lot of those great old guys produced a lot of police dogs especially before sport became so popular.
Homework! And go see a lot of dogs.
One cross that I was told never to make (this was in 1996) and crossed a Gomo von Schiefferschloss son to a Ciro z Pohranicni Straze daughter. I did it anyway. Alligators. Still have one of them.
So, there ya go!
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
by darylehret on 14 December 2009 - 03:12
Let me challenge that thinking, and not that I necessarily disagree with what you're saying either.
When you see (in person) multiple examples of progeny that all have 'a common thread', it can often stand to reason that the near ancestor in the pedigree that they all happen to share in common can be potentially responsible for the said particular trait.
The fact is, many of the dogs discussed in this thread are no longer living, working or producing, or privately owned and simply not exhibited to the general public. And many of us here, haven't been around these dogs in decades previous.
And if a breeder provides an accurate assessment of a particular dog that you attain from them, then it again stands to reason that the next dog they describe, "is pronounced in so and so", probably will in fact meet your expectations as was done from past experience. The ones that let you down on the first chance you take, well, 'live and learn' I suppose. The ones that meet your needs are the ones you tend to return to in later business.
I myself, have never actually purchased a dog from the Jinopo kennels, and probably would not, without some viable information to support that decision. If I had little exposure to the ancestry behind the breeding pair, no in-person evaluation of the dogs, no prior dealings with the breeder, and little or no working video to preview, then I have what to base my decision on? Popular hype and cunning marketing skills?
I think Hans needs to talk to Jiri about bringing more than a couple green dogs over. Let's have a little PR for the real producers of Jinopo kennels. Perhaps that would entice some people to travel to Europe and actually visit the entire kennel themselves.
Many people in my area have Van den Heuvel dogs, while I've owned five of them myself, and maybe another someday soon. I've only met one Jinopo puppy in the state of Colorado, and although a nice stable companion, it's not active in any formal type of training to have learned much about it.
I'd bet there's fewer people that make their selections entirely based on pedigree alone, than we'd like to think.
When you see (in person) multiple examples of progeny that all have 'a common thread', it can often stand to reason that the near ancestor in the pedigree that they all happen to share in common can be potentially responsible for the said particular trait.
The fact is, many of the dogs discussed in this thread are no longer living, working or producing, or privately owned and simply not exhibited to the general public. And many of us here, haven't been around these dogs in decades previous.
And if a breeder provides an accurate assessment of a particular dog that you attain from them, then it again stands to reason that the next dog they describe, "is pronounced in so and so", probably will in fact meet your expectations as was done from past experience. The ones that let you down on the first chance you take, well, 'live and learn' I suppose. The ones that meet your needs are the ones you tend to return to in later business.
I myself, have never actually purchased a dog from the Jinopo kennels, and probably would not, without some viable information to support that decision. If I had little exposure to the ancestry behind the breeding pair, no in-person evaluation of the dogs, no prior dealings with the breeder, and little or no working video to preview, then I have what to base my decision on? Popular hype and cunning marketing skills?
I think Hans needs to talk to Jiri about bringing more than a couple green dogs over. Let's have a little PR for the real producers of Jinopo kennels. Perhaps that would entice some people to travel to Europe and actually visit the entire kennel themselves.
Many people in my area have Van den Heuvel dogs, while I've owned five of them myself, and maybe another someday soon. I've only met one Jinopo puppy in the state of Colorado, and although a nice stable companion, it's not active in any formal type of training to have learned much about it.
I'd bet there's fewer people that make their selections entirely based on pedigree alone, than we'd like to think.
by Prager on 15 December 2009 - 02:12
darylehret
It is interesting for you to say that you would not buy a dog from JINOPO, without some viable information to support that decision , but you have 5 dogs from van den Heuvel, which still is total novice in the breed, in comparison to me or Jiri, Dari does not train their dogs, does not know mutch about dogs in Czech, never been in there and only has superb marketing and selsmanship based production of dogs. I have helped to set up original van den Heuvel breeding program with Jiri. Did you actually go to Montana or Oregon to evaluate these dogs before purchase? It probably would not do any good anyway. Because you could not see there the old foundation dogs which are or died in Czech , but Jiri and little less me is totaly familiar with.
Do not take me wrong way. I am not trying to attack you, I am just trying to figure out what youre saying and what makes people like you tik.
My advice to buyers is this:
To purchase a dog is always a leap of faith. Who do you trust and who not to trust. That is the question.... You can look at dogs, videos, pictures and read what ever you want on internet and talk to people with opinions (everybody has couple), but that does not give you a guarantee of quality dog.
#1 You must trust to the knowledgable person who is selling you the dog and who knows the bloodlines many generations back.
#2 and back their dogs by good warranty.
That's all.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
It is interesting for you to say that you would not buy a dog from JINOPO, without some viable information to support that decision , but you have 5 dogs from van den Heuvel, which still is total novice in the breed, in comparison to me or Jiri, Dari does not train their dogs, does not know mutch about dogs in Czech, never been in there and only has superb marketing and selsmanship based production of dogs. I have helped to set up original van den Heuvel breeding program with Jiri. Did you actually go to Montana or Oregon to evaluate these dogs before purchase? It probably would not do any good anyway. Because you could not see there the old foundation dogs which are or died in Czech , but Jiri and little less me is totaly familiar with.
Do not take me wrong way. I am not trying to attack you, I am just trying to figure out what youre saying and what makes people like you tik.
My advice to buyers is this:
To purchase a dog is always a leap of faith. Who do you trust and who not to trust. That is the question.... You can look at dogs, videos, pictures and read what ever you want on internet and talk to people with opinions (everybody has couple), but that does not give you a guarantee of quality dog.
#1 You must trust to the knowledgable person who is selling you the dog and who knows the bloodlines many generations back.
#2 and back their dogs by good warranty.
That's all.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by darylehret on 15 December 2009 - 04:12
There was no offense intended. I just happened to take my leap of faith with van den Heuvel already, and they've not let me down since. I agree, they do market their dogs well, but even aside from the ones I've owned, I've seen many others from their breeding. I've taken many leaps of faith, and most times been failed. Never said I wouldn't purchase a Jinopo dog, only that I'm not familiar with them, or very much of the dogs behind them. Yes, I have been to van den Heuvel's kennel and seen some of their dogs.
In czech dogs, I'm more familiar with the Ingo v Rudigen > Held Ritterberg lines, with minor emphasis in Grim z PS, Cordon an Sat, Gero z Blatenskeho zamku, Bob z Kostilanej cesty to name a few. I don't try to deviate too much from what I'm familiar with. Same with breeders I guess you could say. I've also puchased as many dogs from Eurosport, and they seem to have "everything" good, bad and in between. I wouln't ever want to be that 'diversified'. If I could see more of what Jinopo produces, I may someday be interested. But I've hardly seen anything, and nothing grabs my attention right now. I've always preferred the older, DDR influenced czech lines that are also found in Jinopo kennels, and kept a reasonable eye on Jiri's activities.
In case my point was misunderstood, let me put it another way (leaving out the kennel names). If we can't evaluate the dogs themselves, then we must base our decisions on our positive past experience with particular breeders (which is a reflection of their experience), with our assessment of the said producer's progeny, with video recordings of work/training/trialing, and whatever else we can get our hands on. We have to go on "something" to support our decisions.
I think it would do Jinopo kennels some good, to demonstrate it's producers to the public, for those of us who want to rely on more than second hand opinions. "Marketing" isn't exactly a dirty word, y'know. It's all in the approach.
In czech dogs, I'm more familiar with the Ingo v Rudigen > Held Ritterberg lines, with minor emphasis in Grim z PS, Cordon an Sat, Gero z Blatenskeho zamku, Bob z Kostilanej cesty to name a few. I don't try to deviate too much from what I'm familiar with. Same with breeders I guess you could say. I've also puchased as many dogs from Eurosport, and they seem to have "everything" good, bad and in between. I wouln't ever want to be that 'diversified'. If I could see more of what Jinopo produces, I may someday be interested. But I've hardly seen anything, and nothing grabs my attention right now. I've always preferred the older, DDR influenced czech lines that are also found in Jinopo kennels, and kept a reasonable eye on Jiri's activities.
In case my point was misunderstood, let me put it another way (leaving out the kennel names). If we can't evaluate the dogs themselves, then we must base our decisions on our positive past experience with particular breeders (which is a reflection of their experience), with our assessment of the said producer's progeny, with video recordings of work/training/trialing, and whatever else we can get our hands on. We have to go on "something" to support our decisions.
I think it would do Jinopo kennels some good, to demonstrate it's producers to the public, for those of us who want to rely on more than second hand opinions. "Marketing" isn't exactly a dirty word, y'know. It's all in the approach.
by DDRshep on 15 December 2009 - 05:12
More than 80% of Americans have never owned a passport.
With careful planning, one can go to Europe and back for a thousand bucks and see dogs. Lots of dogs. Drink a lot of good beer and wine too. (instead of whine)
There's no excuses.
People happily spend thousands of dollars importing dogs and puppies without having made a single trip.
Hans, do you still run those trips?
If you do, then maybe DE can go with you next time.
With careful planning, one can go to Europe and back for a thousand bucks and see dogs. Lots of dogs. Drink a lot of good beer and wine too. (instead of whine)
There's no excuses.
People happily spend thousands of dollars importing dogs and puppies without having made a single trip.
Hans, do you still run those trips?
If you do, then maybe DE can go with you next time.
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