Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines - Page 8

Hello to you too Rik,

I as you know have both show and work GSD, as I won't  loose anything, I tell you I am not happy with either one of them. The show is not very good in structure and does not meet the standard in regards to the description of courage etc. The work is also not very good in structure and does not meet the standard in respect to the  description of courage either, the difference I see between both of them is the work one is more active and always carries a piece of stone in it's mouth and runs with it. Before anyone jumps on me, we have no clubs for training, I have no experience in training other than what I read on the net, and I think I still have the right to own a GSD. I am not in the sport nor in the show ring, we don't have such luxury here yet, but I love dogs and wanted a family companion, property protector and have the ambition along with some friends to make a good quality GSD available here at a reasonable cost. The problem is how to get a quality GSD !!!
We imported several GSDs, only one work type is good enough, not very good but only good, isn't that a pity?
I see problems are there in both the types, even assuming we were cheated with what we were sold, yet out of all those GSDs, only one turns to bes just-good  tells there are problems in the breed.
After you hear all the conflicting opinions and you hear all the self claims on this forum you start doubting the credebility.
One is not supposed to be a professional dog-man to be able/lucky to buy a good quality GSD, if the good GSDs were the fad it would have been easier to get a satisfactory one. That is why I sometimes get sensitive and wish we had one-better-GSD, I am not sure what the solution is or which is really better or who is truly doing the right thing, but I was hoping to hear more from those who had experience in crossing both the types rather than authoritative teaching without telling self crossing experience whether results were good or bad.

Ibrahim

There's a lady up the mountain from me, Toni Brezell, who has show lines. Just to share a litte unbiased information, I cantell you her dogs win, and win a lot in big sieger shows. But her SLs still have sound enough structure that they can run hard down the field and hit as hard as some working dogs on the long bite. They are very uniform in looks and have sound temperaments. She doesn't get this quality by crossing with working lines. She has worked too many years to get where she is with her dogs to "muck" them up mixing the lines. If you need to correct problems with your SL temperament, working ability, structure, pigment, I would think using sound dogs like Toni's would accomplish a whole lot more than going to a line as dissimilar as WLs. You would have a better chance of achieving what your trying to accomplish by staying within the SL.

I read a little about how the Captain used several dogs to create the breed which were not uniform in type then and that he always went back and crossed back to herding dogs to reinforce the work ability and stabilize it in the breed. Work and Show nowadays can't be that far in-between than those dogs which the Captain used then. I think the Captain developed the type and structure and maintained the work vigor by re-crossing with work dogs, I read that breeders did the same till the 80s, why is it wrong to do the same thing now?

Ibrahim

My stud sired a litter to a showline bitch of my approval last year.  I raised a male from the litter to about 6 months, and the owner of the showline expressed pleasure with the results, while my experience was not the best.  I'm afraid since it wasn't my litter, I can't say a lot about it, but the male I raised was structurally yech and temperamentally bleh.

If I could do it again, I wouldn't.  But hey, every match made is a completely different situation unto itself.  I will say though, that the principles of heredity and genetics as I understand them personally, would never favor the crossing of show and working.

You can integrate two seperate things with synergistic effect, but two refined opposites is asking for a wreck.

 I will say though, that the principles of heredity and genetics as I understand them personally, would never favor the crossing of show and working.

Daryl,

Then how did the Captain create the breed? And how did we reach one GSD till say the 60s and maybe the 70s from several varying dogs at the start of the breed? Aren't all the GSDs, work and show, share same genes from same breed gene pool in the near past?

Ibrahim

You nailed it again, Daryl !!!

He didn't combine show with working.  Selective breeding is how this occured, by breeders selectively prioritizing with different aims.

As far as I know all GSD's go back to the same foundation dogs, Ibrahim. Selective breeding for specific traits by different breeders have made the breed into what it is today.

There in lies the problem as I see it.  Who really, and I mean really is breeding the correct GSD the way it was originally intended?  And who of us are going to agree on the same dog being the perfect example??  I know, just by the examples on this thread that those some call a successful cross of SL/WL are not what I consider successful judging by the pictures.  Granted, pictures may not show the real dog, but honestly, we all have different ideas on what the correct GSD is supposed to look like/act like and that is not going to change any time soon.

  We will never all agree on what the perfect GSD is, so we can only state our opinions, disagree, agree, or argue about it until we are totally sick of this subject.




 

Yes Blitzen I can say I understand what you're saying but Daryl I don't really think I get what you said, show and work is only names, why can't we make selective breeding again from both the genes (show) and (work)?
Do you think the dogs the Captain used had closer traits, type, looks or genes than the show has with the work today?

Ibrahim