can untained dogs really protect? - Page 7

New to the forum but not to GSD. I think it all depends on the DoG, and it's socialization. Right now, I have two GSD same Sire but different Dams, from good working dog lines.  They are BIG Square-Back GSD with blanket backs having extended saddle. At home, nothing or nobody is getting in the house, (no training it's just a territorial response). Outside of that territory, as we've socialized them to be completely approachable, it's a crap-shoot. With the wife, and children maybe, (to be honest I don't know) though I think with me, nope I'm all on my own. So my 2 cents is No, unless the socialization isn't there, that they have very very limited contact with other people (but who wants a GSD like that!)

Please forgive me if I don't ask this question correctly...
What about the dog that is in training for Sch and is a nasty monster on the field, never backs down from pressure but comes home and readily accepts people into their home, never barks at the door, etc...? Would this dog not have a very good defensive drive or is it able to distinguish a threat from a non threat? Or is this just one of those things that you would never know until it is for real? Would defensive drive be the right term or would it be territorial? - Sorry, my one question was more like 20.

Dogs struggle to distinguish any threat unless it's very overt. Police K9's can be very chilled at home, and not openly protective for very important reasons. The DAM of my GSD is a KNPV dog, from KNPV lines, and she is very social, a stranger could take her our of the back of the car. Why? Because the training hasn't been given, and the dog is genetically very confident.

Remember many of the examples given are Sitting Room Heroes, every ones brave behind a fence or when being held back.
Because we have less guns in the UK when we make arrests for say drug dealers we go to the house , smash the doors and run through the house grabbing the occupants to prevent escape or disposal of evidence, this is happening in our force around 6 times per day. I've never yet had a dog  in 24yrs properly confront us, plenty will naturally kick off when cornered, they all bark before they leg it, we don't shoot them or gas them, just shout loudly and dominate utilising speed and aggression.

The critical issue with dogs is the deterrent value, which is actually the key to all security measures. I'm fascinated by the fear of dogs that 99% of people hold. Even the most rational intelligent dogs owners have this fear.

If someone is prepared to enter your home or car and take on your dog to get to you, then you really do have serious problems on your hands, and the appropriate dog to deal with this threat is either one in a million or a complete pain in the ass to live with.

Ronin

I could breed for a dog that possesses these traits fairly consistently and have it in three generations, but it would come with a price of unbalance in the dogs and not true GS temperament. This is because the breed was started from 4 basic types and one of those types was known as a protection dog. You can breed for this singular trait just like you can for color or angulation or  prey drive. But it comes with a price because the breed is a combination of all four dogs and is meant to be balanced in traits. So in a littter of 8 with "typical" German Shepherd strength of character, you might get 2 that are capable of being manstoppers without training, but it must be accompanied with the nerve and disgression to not be overt liability. This is just a generalization, but today with the specialization, almost all the different lines have an unbalanced emphasis on what the breeders are breeding for...ie...show, sport, and specific work. So this isn't applicable as much today as it was before the breed became so specialized. 

I have a couple questions about this topic:

1) Trained in what discipline? Personal protection, schutzhund, street dog?
2) Is a dog that has been trained in bitework more likely to bite because they have been given permission to bite?
3) How would one truly know if even a trained dog will bite to protect as most scenarios are simulated.  Therefore the key elements in a true life-threatining situation is missing i.e. the adrenaline and fear that accompanies a life threatening situation.

I have been blessed with a couple dogs over the years that have proven they  would protect and stepped up to the occassion - my beloved SAR K9 partner, Richter,  my beloved Karina Lutilska Skala  (deceased) and a couple of Richter's get.   All these dogs come from WLs. Just a quick story: As a child, I had a Dachshund who believe it or not, stepped up to the plate and bit an older boy who was kicking me.  She wouldn't let go of his leg until he stopped moving his leg.  The funny part is that the incident occurred on my mother's birthday.  After the incident I went home for dinner but failed, actually was afraid  to mention to my parents what my beloved Doxie did.  My mom's birthday celebration came to a screeching halt when the police showed up for a dog bite report and my dog was put under a 10 day house arrest. (LOL)

One more thing - I also have a mule that has shown she would protect her family from a threat be it man or animal (hee hee). 

Cassandra

Gustav,
Thanks for your as usual good post. I've been following this thread from the start, and I agree with your last post 100%. I've had dogs all my life and the more I'm reading this the more I'm realizing most people think strong defense is a weakness, and most these dogs can be run off under pressure. I will agree if you are looking at dogs with over the top prey, you will find weaknesses. These weaknesses are being brought to the top by breeding for these extremes in prey. Hardness is being thought of as a bad thing, and hard dogs being a loose cannon. A hard dog has always been to me a dog that refuses to be out pressured. Not a weak nerved dog that is looking for a way out, but the more heat that is put on him, harder the fight is in the dog. It all boils down to the dogs heart. Dogs are being designer bred for what is as Gustav said, bred for specialization instead of balance and courage.
Hank

I agree wholeheartedly with Gustav. And I think, collectively, the 4 pages of posts here have summed the answer up.

The real answer to the question of "will my untrained, well bred shepherd protect me?" is that there IS no answer. Perhaps, perhaps not. More likely they will growl and show their teeth, less likely will they fight. Some will fight (most won't). It all depends on the bond and the dog's individual personality. Even well "breddedness" doesn't play too much of a factor while on the subject of untrained dogs. Genetics accounts for a small portion of a dog's temperment. The rest is "it's raising" and, more importantly, how that particular dog interprets it's raising.

Fortunately, a big german shepherd barking and snarling is all most people will need in most situations.

To reinforce my bolded point and the following sentense, here is a video of an AMERICAN SHOWLINE (with perhaps some german and working lines somewhere in the mix; he came from a back yard breeder so who really knows) male with no formal training beyond being a momma's baby. This video is his first time seeing a sleeve, first time biting, second time seeing a whip, and third time being threatened. 

He had two agitation sessions (howbeit halfhearted, and when you see the video and notice his injury you'll understand why we haven't bothered do much with him) about a year prior to this. Otherwise, he has been raised as a house dog with a four year old and three teacup chihuahuas with no foundational working dog training.

(he is the black and tan. The black sable is a young dog who, at the time, would not have been committed to a bite if he'd gotten close enough to let her. Still, if you were an average bad guy wanting to steal my purse, would you bother?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw809SntCnw&feature=channel_video_title

But even though he put on a tough show and DID back it up, he was nervy and uncertain. Had the decoy gotten hard on him he would have let go. Would this PARTICULAR dog have ran back to the car and left me to fight on my own? Probably not (but notice how compliant he was to OUT on the command used to get him to drop his toys during fetch). But if you are the type of person who expects to get into a real world situation where your dog will need to use force, I would invest the money in professional training. It's worth it by far.

Just as over the top prey is a weakness so is over the top defense. Too much defense shows a potential insecurity. When I test green dogs the super defensive ones are backed down a lot faster then the super high prey dogs, believe it or not. Hardeness, IMO has nothing to do with defense. I can show you a super high prey drive dog that will take tremendous pressure and never back down, just to get a sleeve. Super nerves, super confident, super high drive little defense. A dog that will not bite you for real but will never back down. Great sport dog, super full grips but does not view any one as a threat and will work through tremendous pressure and remain unrattled. But it is all for her prey. She is very hard but with little true defense. Defense and hardness do not always go together. Cassandra to respond to your second question, yes a trained dog will generally have less bite inhibition than an untrained dog. To respond to your third question, scenarios can be designed and set to properly test nd pressure a dog without a bite suit or a sleeve. You can get a pretty good idea of what the dog has to offer by a properly designed scenario. Posting from a phone stinks

Donald, see below reference:


Protective - adj. 1. having the quality or function of protecting; 2. defensive


The word "protective" does not mean "bite on command." Therefore, my post is legitimate to the definition of the term versus the subjective opinion or use.

Barking and alerting you is providing warning so that you know that there might be a need to protect yourself.  That is not active protection in the form of physically confronting and terminating a threat.  So given that just about everyone else is drawing a distinction between merely barking and alerting versus manstopping, I don't think the dictionary definition is at all relevant to the gist of the discussion.