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by Rik on 06 August 2010 - 02:08
dayrle, you have made a few good points that I agree with. From my experience so far, one must be careful in choosing character in S/L.
There are many people with the experience, knowledege and finances to put their dream on a leash and present it. So don't be too concerned about wrecking the dreams of these people. You aren't swinging that big a hammer.
Rik
There are many people with the experience, knowledege and finances to put their dream on a leash and present it. So don't be too concerned about wrecking the dreams of these people. You aren't swinging that big a hammer.
Rik
by Kalibeck on 06 August 2010 - 03:08
My girl Kali is a West German s/l line bred on Lasso through Fanto Hirschel. She was bred by a hobby breeder who really cares about the breed. She has never had a health issue, & can do whatever anyone asks of her, including jump & climb walls. Someone knowledgable in the breed who bred w/l GSDs said she had the best angulations they had ever seen. My husband decided to breed her to our DDR/Czech boy Wolf, without discussing it with me, & we had 7 absolutely gorgeous pups, They went to pet homes where they are well loved, but all of them had great temperments & good drives. They could have done anything. My w/l male from good bloodlines, has had nothing but problems from puppyhood on...skin issues, digestive problems, & hip dysplasia. I had to neuter him. So, go figure. There are stinkers from any bloodline, any type. Good temperment, stable nerves, correct conformation...should be the goal, & it doesn't matter which 'type' they come from. JMHO, jackie harris (a newbie)
by smith on 06 August 2010 - 03:08
here is one hard sl/wl www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/668130.html
by charlie319 on 06 August 2010 - 05:08
IMPO: the whole WL/SL split boils down to breeders trying to create a niche for their product after sables and blacks were deep-sixed by the show-line crowd (back in the 1970's & 1980's) in favor of the "black & tans" and owners too insecure to realize that their dog is not that different from a SL's or WL's dog. Granted, by now, breeders of both SL's and WL's are equaly guilty of fostering this situation. I, for one, don't need, or want, a dog that is bred to be either delicate, nor so utilitarian and wound up so tight as to render it more of a chore than a complement in my life. I like a dog that is civil, but does not exude agression in its appearance or demeanor. Prey drive has its place, but it is a PITA to "turn off" once the dog has been agitated in a real life protection scenario.
Now, if your life revolves around the dog-show lifestyle, working dogs, or dog-sports, I can see why an extreme WL or SL dog might apeal to you. However, most folks neither want nor need such animals and most hobbyist breeders seek to breed towards the extreme to maximize upon the investment they've made in raising and competing their dog. Thus, we have dogs that a few decades ago would have been "outliers" being peddled as being the norm in one of these two "lines". Not only does this create genetic bottlenecks, but regular folks (not in the show or sport environment) have a hard time finding a GSD that does not represent some kind of an issue. The GSD, as originally intended, is a fantastic dog, bred to both tend and protect the herd as well as provide its master with loyal company. Lately, it has been nudged away from being a "generalist" herding and protector into more specialized niches and that has caused it to fall in favor with the population at large. Pretending that breeding to these two extremes, while neglecting to breed the more balanced type of dog, is hardly a good stewardship of the breed. It used to be that GSD's were the most prevalent dog among families... Think about that when you see folks buying "labradoodles" (as if they were some legitimate breed and not a glorified mutt) and other less reliable breeds, instead of a GSD.
I know that most breeders mean well, but at this rate, we'll all be the architects of the breed's demise.
Now, if your life revolves around the dog-show lifestyle, working dogs, or dog-sports, I can see why an extreme WL or SL dog might apeal to you. However, most folks neither want nor need such animals and most hobbyist breeders seek to breed towards the extreme to maximize upon the investment they've made in raising and competing their dog. Thus, we have dogs that a few decades ago would have been "outliers" being peddled as being the norm in one of these two "lines". Not only does this create genetic bottlenecks, but regular folks (not in the show or sport environment) have a hard time finding a GSD that does not represent some kind of an issue. The GSD, as originally intended, is a fantastic dog, bred to both tend and protect the herd as well as provide its master with loyal company. Lately, it has been nudged away from being a "generalist" herding and protector into more specialized niches and that has caused it to fall in favor with the population at large. Pretending that breeding to these two extremes, while neglecting to breed the more balanced type of dog, is hardly a good stewardship of the breed. It used to be that GSD's were the most prevalent dog among families... Think about that when you see folks buying "labradoodles" (as if they were some legitimate breed and not a glorified mutt) and other less reliable breeds, instead of a GSD.
I know that most breeders mean well, but at this rate, we'll all be the architects of the breed's demise.
by Abby Normal on 06 August 2010 - 11:08
This has been a very interesting topic. I agree primarily with Silbersee and with Charlie319.
My understanding (I do not breed) is that some (showline especially) are considering outcrossing to working lines to improve the conformation (especially angulation)in the showline. There is no doubt in my mind that the showline conformation has gone wildly off the page in terms of a functional and healthy anatomy, not to mention not conforming to the breed standard, despite arguments to the contrary. As Charlie319 says, the goal is to achieve a more balanced animal, able to do all the jobs a GSD should be able to do. Of course initially these outcrossings are going to produce plenty of unsuccessful results, but unless we start trying to correct the extremes in conformation and temperament now, we will be the architects of the breeds demise. So to my mind, those that are taking this route hold a vision for the future. Not just continuing down this split path. Real diehards in both S/L and W/L do seem to stamp on the idea, claiming that this will produce an inferior dog 'a mediocre dog'. For me this is lacking in vision. It will be years before we see just how well this is working. I know some recent S/L X W/L litters bred from a really excellent W/L stud dog. I shall be very interested to see how they finally turn out. Some of the greats in history would fall into this 'mediocre' category today, but most people I think would agree that were what a GSD should be, we have diverged into extremes, and any extreme is the polar opposite of balanced.
IMO working line generally are much more representative of the standard, but the shepherd should not have such a high drive that they are hell to live with, and there lies the balance that needs to be achieved in some W/L IMO. I know that there are plenty of W/L that don't fall into that category, but there are plenty that do. I do not see how S/L using W/L to improve conformation can be detrimental to W/L - it will make no difference at all to W/L if studs are used for this purpose. There could however be much to gain in the general GSD population for the future.
JMO
My understanding (I do not breed) is that some (showline especially) are considering outcrossing to working lines to improve the conformation (especially angulation)in the showline. There is no doubt in my mind that the showline conformation has gone wildly off the page in terms of a functional and healthy anatomy, not to mention not conforming to the breed standard, despite arguments to the contrary. As Charlie319 says, the goal is to achieve a more balanced animal, able to do all the jobs a GSD should be able to do. Of course initially these outcrossings are going to produce plenty of unsuccessful results, but unless we start trying to correct the extremes in conformation and temperament now, we will be the architects of the breeds demise. So to my mind, those that are taking this route hold a vision for the future. Not just continuing down this split path. Real diehards in both S/L and W/L do seem to stamp on the idea, claiming that this will produce an inferior dog 'a mediocre dog'. For me this is lacking in vision. It will be years before we see just how well this is working. I know some recent S/L X W/L litters bred from a really excellent W/L stud dog. I shall be very interested to see how they finally turn out. Some of the greats in history would fall into this 'mediocre' category today, but most people I think would agree that were what a GSD should be, we have diverged into extremes, and any extreme is the polar opposite of balanced.
IMO working line generally are much more representative of the standard, but the shepherd should not have such a high drive that they are hell to live with, and there lies the balance that needs to be achieved in some W/L IMO. I know that there are plenty of W/L that don't fall into that category, but there are plenty that do. I do not see how S/L using W/L to improve conformation can be detrimental to W/L - it will make no difference at all to W/L if studs are used for this purpose. There could however be much to gain in the general GSD population for the future.
JMO
by Felloffher on 06 August 2010 - 14:08
I will apologize ahead of time if I offend anyone, however Abby what most of what you are saying above doesn't make much sence.
The GSD was bred to be a working utility dog first and foremost. S/L people have taken the breed and turned into animal so far gone from it's original purpose and confirmation all for reasons I can't figure out. I haven't in my life ever heard one good explanation for the split. If the working line dog is more representative of the standard except for the high drive that is unmanagable (I disagree) wouldn't it make more sence than to find specimens within the W/L's that meet the standard (again your words) and breed to them? The W/L's generally already have the confirmation and character that the breed was intended to have. The S/L has nothing to offer the GSD and any notion that the breed a can be fixed using S/L is delusional.
The dogs with to much drive (your words) that are unmanagable are more than likely the result of an owner not training their dog and expecting it to be a fluffy pet without a job. The GSD again is a working dog and without a job this dog will not make a good pet. Breeders that water down the lines in order to make this wonderful dog a pet aren't doing the breed any favours.
The only hope for the GSD in the future are the kennels that focus on dogs that work at a high level and the health of this breed. If the working dog breeder ceases to exist, the show line breeders will be the dimise of our wonderful dogs.
Back to you show line wankers.
The GSD was bred to be a working utility dog first and foremost. S/L people have taken the breed and turned into animal so far gone from it's original purpose and confirmation all for reasons I can't figure out. I haven't in my life ever heard one good explanation for the split. If the working line dog is more representative of the standard except for the high drive that is unmanagable (I disagree) wouldn't it make more sence than to find specimens within the W/L's that meet the standard (again your words) and breed to them? The W/L's generally already have the confirmation and character that the breed was intended to have. The S/L has nothing to offer the GSD and any notion that the breed a can be fixed using S/L is delusional.
The dogs with to much drive (your words) that are unmanagable are more than likely the result of an owner not training their dog and expecting it to be a fluffy pet without a job. The GSD again is a working dog and without a job this dog will not make a good pet. Breeders that water down the lines in order to make this wonderful dog a pet aren't doing the breed any favours.
The only hope for the GSD in the future are the kennels that focus on dogs that work at a high level and the health of this breed. If the working dog breeder ceases to exist, the show line breeders will be the dimise of our wonderful dogs.
Back to you show line wankers.
by charlie319 on 06 August 2010 - 15:08
appologies are not needed. Read this nice article on John La torre's website that explains some of the split:
German Shepherd History "DDR" and German Shepherd History "DDR" Page 2
Once the Martins (and those in their camp) created teh "cookie-cutter" showline dog, owners and breeders of sable and black dogw were literally shut out of any achievements in the show ring. In the end, the blame would lie with the consumer who looks for a dog that is easier to train or easier to mind and there lies the "nice, nicer, nicest" problem with the SL GSD and the WL dogs with the huge prey drives and focus that are easier and faster to train. I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to breed towards such extremes, however, the price paid has been the near loss of the more versatile dog type that had a healthy aloofness yet did not "need" to have a job to be manageable.
I've seen plenty of "pets" that herd and protect their owners without the owners realizing it. The label of pet is often used derisively to label an animal as unfit, when in reality there are many examples of well bred GSD's living in pet situations. Some can make the adjustment and others are unable to do so.
Any extreme in breeding is not good for the breed as it tends to create bottlenecks and reduce the genetic base.
Would this dog be competitive today in either show or working lines?
He was the 1966 Sieger Basko von der Kahler Heide.
German Shepherd History "DDR" and German Shepherd History "DDR" Page 2
Once the Martins (and those in their camp) created teh "cookie-cutter" showline dog, owners and breeders of sable and black dogw were literally shut out of any achievements in the show ring. In the end, the blame would lie with the consumer who looks for a dog that is easier to train or easier to mind and there lies the "nice, nicer, nicest" problem with the SL GSD and the WL dogs with the huge prey drives and focus that are easier and faster to train. I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to breed towards such extremes, however, the price paid has been the near loss of the more versatile dog type that had a healthy aloofness yet did not "need" to have a job to be manageable.
I've seen plenty of "pets" that herd and protect their owners without the owners realizing it. The label of pet is often used derisively to label an animal as unfit, when in reality there are many examples of well bred GSD's living in pet situations. Some can make the adjustment and others are unable to do so.
Any extreme in breeding is not good for the breed as it tends to create bottlenecks and reduce the genetic base.
Would this dog be competitive today in either show or working lines?
He was the 1966 Sieger Basko von der Kahler Heide.
by Felloffher on 06 August 2010 - 15:08
Thanks for that Charlie.
Basko represents the proper structure a GSD should have. I can't comment on working ability because I was still sperm back then.lol.
Basko represents the proper structure a GSD should have. I can't comment on working ability because I was still sperm back then.lol.
by Sugarbear on 06 August 2010 - 16:08
Felloffher - wow that's strong. Look, although I do agree that it is obsurd to begin with a s/l dog, and to then use w/l genetics to to correct what I believe to be obvious mis-givings according to Max's own standard, we have got to accept where this thing has gotten to, and attain to a realistic solution. Anyone would have a difficult time of convincing me that today's sv show lines (after generations of tweeking to bring out what they interpret to be the perfectly ascetic example) embodies the orignal vision for the breed, just my opinion. Like it or not, a large segment of the gsd population is made up of dogs whose genetic lineage has been manipulated to produce an ever changing picture of how a GSD should show. Now, as I mentioned before, I believe there is room enough for both. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with a show line dog having been developed from the original ideal, so long as care is taken to preserve the integrity of what a gsd was in the beginning, and should remain. I hold this opinion, because after all, we breed, love, own, train, and play with these dogs because we are all so taken with them (or so it should be anyway). I cannot in my right my right mind determine that it is any more "right" to breed a dog to work than it is to breed one to show.
by darylehret on 06 August 2010 - 17:08
No one has still metioned what the showlines can bring to the workinglines that it doesn't already have. Definitely not conformation. Possibly a higher frequency of black & tan coats, but we have that too, if it's greatly desired enough. I plan to breed to one if not two different black & tan workingline dogs in the next year or two. And believe me, it isn't about the color.
At this point in the split, showline people are desperate, so go ahead and mix workingline dogs into your lines. It'll help more than it will hurt, I'm sure. But, it certainly won't be easy. It will take as much careful selection and long term planning as it took to create the breed from its inception. Probably even more difficult, if you consider that the founder began with his "ideal" dog for the standard, right from the get go.
The problem appears from my perspective, that showline people have a lot of money tied up in their expensive garbage, and with their strong reluctance to take out the trash, don't realize that starting from scratch with good all round dogs is much more efficient and cost effective in the long term. If quality breeding is your true objective, means more than the $$$ you're making in the showline venues and sales, then the choice should be pretty easy.
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