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by nugget on 26 March 2010 - 07:03
Well put David;
Burying one's head in the sand is a characteristic of ostriches, not Homosapiens. However, when faced with a difficult, challenging and radical decisions, many more cautious individuals will avoid that decision and by nature hang back to gather more information and buy time. Others, by their nature, will not hesitate to take that decision, particularly as when, in this case, the facts of the matter seem so obvious. Characteristically, these others will become frustrated by what they see as the intransigence of the first group.
However, more often than not both groups (remember, we are not ostriches) will, with time, come to the same conclusion.
Lets not let the KC do to us what it has done so masterfully in the past, Divide and Rule. Let us be reflective, pragmatic and inclusive. But let us move forward
Nugget .
Burying one's head in the sand is a characteristic of ostriches, not Homosapiens. However, when faced with a difficult, challenging and radical decisions, many more cautious individuals will avoid that decision and by nature hang back to gather more information and buy time. Others, by their nature, will not hesitate to take that decision, particularly as when, in this case, the facts of the matter seem so obvious. Characteristically, these others will become frustrated by what they see as the intransigence of the first group.
However, more often than not both groups (remember, we are not ostriches) will, with time, come to the same conclusion.
Lets not let the KC do to us what it has done so masterfully in the past, Divide and Rule. Let us be reflective, pragmatic and inclusive. But let us move forward
Nugget .
by Sue B on 26 March 2010 - 07:03
Hi Ally
We have been 'inside' for decades and look where we are now, so precisely where and what has being inside actually got us other than nowhere, or at least not very far. After 30yrs of Hip Scoring the KC still cant make it mandatory before Registering a litter and the KC have already broken their own rules by sidestepping a KC recognised Breed Council by contacing each individual club directly and have recently said they will now ONLY talk to the Clubs that have signed, therefore announced their intent to continue to bypass the Breed Council. So much for the Breed Clubs who have only ever had Open show status and have paid BC subs for years along with KC fee's for maintenance of title, now these clubs aint going to get a chance to voice their opinion anywhere. So where in this is the fairness, democracy and benefit to our breed? So much for co-operation and mutual respect between the KC and Breed Clubs getting together (as the KC have now put it) to decide the best way forward, when the KC have recently announced that the ONLY Breed Clubs they are prepared to talk to will be the ones who are already nodding in agreement when they signed the Undertaking. Lets be clear here, of the Clubs that have decided NOT to sign, which ones have you or anyone else heard say they were leaving the KC? The KC have said they will take away the Clubs CC's but that doesnt mean the Club no longer exists, if it continues to pay its maintenance of title then it remains registered and therefore still 'lnside' the KC, so really its the KC themselves who are picking and choosing who to 'exclude' from these intimate 'get togethers' with those who have signed up to their bidding.
Do you really expect any GSD enthusiast with the ardent belief the way forward for the best future of our breed is via the WUSV route of Mandatory Health Testing is going to believe more decades of talking to the KC is going to achieve this? Just how many more years do you want to waste paddling in that 'inside' pond, when you could be motoring along in knots in the oceans of the WUSV?
You said, "I agree with David. The best way forward is a mixture of Regional & KC events.", do you really believe that is the best way forward and is that really what David thinks, or what you think David thinks, because surely both ways cant be the best way forward except for the indecisive fence sitter. I thought UNITY would always be the best way forward but if we ALL UNITED behind signing the Undertaking, just how many WUSV Events do you think the KC would allow us to have? One, two , three or less because as sure as eggs are eggs we wouldnt be allowed to have any more. And what would the restrictions be? Would they restrict them from being held on the same dates as Alsatian Clubs and General Champ shows hold CC shows, would they grant permission ONLY on the proviso that we keep to the rules within the Undertaking , i.e. abandoning classes if any double handling persists, reporting judges that may put up someone elses idea of unsoundness. Then we are back to this recent question of Who has the final decision on the soundness of a dog?
CONTINUED BELOW
We have been 'inside' for decades and look where we are now, so precisely where and what has being inside actually got us other than nowhere, or at least not very far. After 30yrs of Hip Scoring the KC still cant make it mandatory before Registering a litter and the KC have already broken their own rules by sidestepping a KC recognised Breed Council by contacing each individual club directly and have recently said they will now ONLY talk to the Clubs that have signed, therefore announced their intent to continue to bypass the Breed Council. So much for the Breed Clubs who have only ever had Open show status and have paid BC subs for years along with KC fee's for maintenance of title, now these clubs aint going to get a chance to voice their opinion anywhere. So where in this is the fairness, democracy and benefit to our breed? So much for co-operation and mutual respect between the KC and Breed Clubs getting together (as the KC have now put it) to decide the best way forward, when the KC have recently announced that the ONLY Breed Clubs they are prepared to talk to will be the ones who are already nodding in agreement when they signed the Undertaking. Lets be clear here, of the Clubs that have decided NOT to sign, which ones have you or anyone else heard say they were leaving the KC? The KC have said they will take away the Clubs CC's but that doesnt mean the Club no longer exists, if it continues to pay its maintenance of title then it remains registered and therefore still 'lnside' the KC, so really its the KC themselves who are picking and choosing who to 'exclude' from these intimate 'get togethers' with those who have signed up to their bidding.
Do you really expect any GSD enthusiast with the ardent belief the way forward for the best future of our breed is via the WUSV route of Mandatory Health Testing is going to believe more decades of talking to the KC is going to achieve this? Just how many more years do you want to waste paddling in that 'inside' pond, when you could be motoring along in knots in the oceans of the WUSV?
You said, "I agree with David. The best way forward is a mixture of Regional & KC events.", do you really believe that is the best way forward and is that really what David thinks, or what you think David thinks, because surely both ways cant be the best way forward except for the indecisive fence sitter. I thought UNITY would always be the best way forward but if we ALL UNITED behind signing the Undertaking, just how many WUSV Events do you think the KC would allow us to have? One, two , three or less because as sure as eggs are eggs we wouldnt be allowed to have any more. And what would the restrictions be? Would they restrict them from being held on the same dates as Alsatian Clubs and General Champ shows hold CC shows, would they grant permission ONLY on the proviso that we keep to the rules within the Undertaking , i.e. abandoning classes if any double handling persists, reporting judges that may put up someone elses idea of unsoundness. Then we are back to this recent question of Who has the final decision on the soundness of a dog?
CONTINUED BELOW
by noddi on 26 March 2010 - 07:03
david and nugget.very well put.i hope that the clubs who have signed this undertaking do not have any reason to regret their decision in the coming months as they are now stuck in this contract for 12 months.i can understand their decision ,as i at the beginning was very much opposed to the idea of perhaps breaking away frpm them,but have changed my mind since then after their underhanded antics and resistance to even sit down,listen and compromise.they couldnt even send a delegation to speak at the meeting in nov.to me that isnt trying to talk to us.all they seem to want is for us to bow down to them and say yes sir,no sir,3 bags full sir.it was said that the german system WOULDNT work here cos as a nation we wouldnt be dictated to,now wot is happening.WE ARE BEING DICTATED TO BY THE KC.i just hope that they dont request that judges for breed club champ.shows for next year be changed to ones of their choosing,basing that,s what had to be done as the clubs DID NOT KEEP TO THE AGREEMENT.imo.i say be warned.Carole S.
by Sue B on 26 March 2010 - 07:03
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE
Keep plugging away from the inside if you must, I dont have a problem with that, but one thing I know for certain is nothing will be changed for the betterment of our beloved breed, at least not with the current set in charge at clarges street, and without any fear of contridiction, most certainly not faster, than those Breed Clubs which have decided NOT TO SIGN. for these will be the Clubs that from now on will be leading the way for the continued betterment of our breed, by running Shows where ONLY the Healthiest, best charactered GSD;s can take top accolades and are surveyed / korunged fit for purpose , fit to be bred from.
Best Regards
Sue
by Sue B on 26 March 2010 - 08:03
WELL SAID, Carole and Nuggett. 
by Blerio on 26 March 2010 - 09:03
Carole and Sue, If were not careful with some of the posts on here where people have started attacking one another about what clubs have, and haven't done, who said! they said! Don't fall out, David is right, we need a transition period, people have been showing and judging based on the K.C. rules since the year dot. It's going to take a lot of self control for people to do things different. Don't be surprised that the K.C. want clubs to sign, and if they don't, sanctions may follow. For gods sake, I've said it many times, It's their game, their bat and ball! and their rules. If you had a member of you're club who constantly refused to follow you're rules, they would have to go! I know this may be difficult, but try and see it from both sides. The remaining NO vote clubs should follow the League's path and organize wusv events, and if the 25th of April is a great success, what an excellent blue print to go forward. People like to see, and be part of a success story, and maybe the clubs that will sign Yes, will then want to become part of that success. So maybe it's slowly, slowly, catch the monkey. regards Bill Owen.
by Sue B on 26 March 2010 - 10:03
Bill, Im not attacking anyone, if you read my post to the continued end I actually said I had not problem with the Clubs that sign, though I will expect them to hold their shows to the full letter of the Undertaking to which they have signed and I will exercise my option to attend both sets of shows as I see fit and as is my right to the freedom of choice which the unsignees have stood up for.
Ally gave her opinion above (as she has every right to do) in that she believed the way forward was to sign the KC undertaking in order to go on talking to the KC as it is her belief we can only change things from 'inside'. Then Nuggett, Carole and myself replied by giving our opinion (which is equally our right to do so) that decades of talking has got us nowhere and now is the time to change. People will vote as they want, that is their right and I will always defend their right to have the freedom of choice to vote as they see fit, that doesnt mean I have to sit back and let them sign without at first trying to point out they will actually be signing away some of their freedom by signing. Its called debate.
So I will defend their right to sign if thats what they believe is the way forward and I will wish them luck in sticking rigidly to the demands of the KC Undertaking and will watch with interest just how successfully they achieve these demands or more to the point just how much effort and dedication they put into enforceing it. That will be the true measure of their beliefs and as I have said before I will sing the praises, tip my hat, bow down, even drop to my knee's in admiration of any Club whose committee correctly and ardently enforce every section of the Undertaking, whilst still managing to run a successful, enjoyable show.
Just as I have always defended the rights of those who wanted to show their dogs with bad hips etc etc (unlike some) because this is permissable under the KC system, so as they were not breaking any rules these people have EVERY right to exhibit these dogs and (unlike some) I will STILL defend their rights to do so. For at the end of the day as long as people follow the rules that they sign up to, they are staying true to their beliefs and I will always defend their right to have these beliefs and I will attend their shows as is my right and hope they will attend ours, as is their right. I just hope they stick to the rules they have signed up to , thats all Im saying and I really dont see what is wrong or devisive about that.
All I have been saying is some felt Item 9 of the Undertaking was too dictatorial and restrictive and that most of the rest was neither workable nor feasible but I am only too happy and certainly not against being proved wrong. AND if I am perfectly honest I just have to say that I am actually relieved that most clubs are signing, because whilst they are having their talks with the KC we will be having ours with the GSDLeague and it will be much easier to sort out the way forward with only a few in the mix than it would with many, you've all heard the saying too many cooks. At least we cant be accused of being selfish, since we have tried to share the cake around, even though the more that sign the bigger the slice of cake for those that dont.
Regards Sue
Ally gave her opinion above (as she has every right to do) in that she believed the way forward was to sign the KC undertaking in order to go on talking to the KC as it is her belief we can only change things from 'inside'. Then Nuggett, Carole and myself replied by giving our opinion (which is equally our right to do so) that decades of talking has got us nowhere and now is the time to change. People will vote as they want, that is their right and I will always defend their right to have the freedom of choice to vote as they see fit, that doesnt mean I have to sit back and let them sign without at first trying to point out they will actually be signing away some of their freedom by signing. Its called debate.
So I will defend their right to sign if thats what they believe is the way forward and I will wish them luck in sticking rigidly to the demands of the KC Undertaking and will watch with interest just how successfully they achieve these demands or more to the point just how much effort and dedication they put into enforceing it. That will be the true measure of their beliefs and as I have said before I will sing the praises, tip my hat, bow down, even drop to my knee's in admiration of any Club whose committee correctly and ardently enforce every section of the Undertaking, whilst still managing to run a successful, enjoyable show.
Just as I have always defended the rights of those who wanted to show their dogs with bad hips etc etc (unlike some) because this is permissable under the KC system, so as they were not breaking any rules these people have EVERY right to exhibit these dogs and (unlike some) I will STILL defend their rights to do so. For at the end of the day as long as people follow the rules that they sign up to, they are staying true to their beliefs and I will always defend their right to have these beliefs and I will attend their shows as is my right and hope they will attend ours, as is their right. I just hope they stick to the rules they have signed up to , thats all Im saying and I really dont see what is wrong or devisive about that.
All I have been saying is some felt Item 9 of the Undertaking was too dictatorial and restrictive and that most of the rest was neither workable nor feasible but I am only too happy and certainly not against being proved wrong. AND if I am perfectly honest I just have to say that I am actually relieved that most clubs are signing, because whilst they are having their talks with the KC we will be having ours with the GSDLeague and it will be much easier to sort out the way forward with only a few in the mix than it would with many, you've all heard the saying too many cooks. At least we cant be accused of being selfish, since we have tried to share the cake around, even though the more that sign the bigger the slice of cake for those that dont.
Regards Sue
by spectator on 26 March 2010 - 11:03
So looking at the bigger picture this was never about a few wobbly dogs or health and safety, the KC are under the media spotlight so they have to embark on a damage limitation PR exercise, but who to offer up as a sacrifice without alienating an entire breed, well those troublesome Germanic GSD lot need teaching a lesson so they'll do, but as the media don't understand what a sin double handling is the KC have to focus on some life threatening unsoundness 
, as much as it may choke you there really is nothing to be gained by throwing in your tickets and then showing up at a club that has kept theirs. Anyone knows that the title of champion doesn't always make a great dog, and the show scene is as much of a social gathering as a means of grading dogs. As has been said be patient, do your own health testing, play the long game and let the KC hang themselves.
, as much as it may choke you there really is nothing to be gained by throwing in your tickets and then showing up at a club that has kept theirs. Anyone knows that the title of champion doesn't always make a great dog, and the show scene is as much of a social gathering as a means of grading dogs. As has been said be patient, do your own health testing, play the long game and let the KC hang themselves.by bazza on 26 March 2010 - 11:03
Spectator, well said!!!!!
by Videx on 26 March 2010 - 12:03
Once again:
I implore everyone to consider the future development of our GSD breed here in Great Britain much more carefully.
We have a great opportunity now, helped, if that is the appropriate word, by the Kennel Club's intransigence, arrogance and spin. Also helped by others who have attempted to align themselves with the Kennel Club for their own personal promotion.
However there are many GSD Club committees who are genuinely finding it difficult, if not impossible, NOT to sign the Kennel Club's GSD "undertaking".
As the reality dawns on those committees, with the benefit of our GSD Regional Events actually taking place, and with the exciting developments unfolding for the future of GSD Regional Events, I feel sure GSD breed club committees will find it very attractive for their club to hold GSD Regional Events. They will then have to consider what they will need to do in order for their club to hold them.
Dynamics will dictate our progress, and we all need to influence them carefully and positively.
I feel sure more exciting information will be available shortly. Please support the GSD League and JOIN the GSD League, they can and will lead us to a wonderful future for our GSD, right here in Great Britain.
IMPORTANT NOTE: There are TEN classes out of TWELVE classes at the GSD League “Regional Event” which require NO training and obtaining of German SV qualifications.
It is also IMPORTANT to note, The Kennel Club cannot take ANY ACTION whatsoever against any GSD or owner for participating in these GSD Regional Events. As I have been stating - they are FULLY INCLUSIVE.
David Payne
I implore everyone to consider the future development of our GSD breed here in Great Britain much more carefully.
We have a great opportunity now, helped, if that is the appropriate word, by the Kennel Club's intransigence, arrogance and spin. Also helped by others who have attempted to align themselves with the Kennel Club for their own personal promotion.
However there are many GSD Club committees who are genuinely finding it difficult, if not impossible, NOT to sign the Kennel Club's GSD "undertaking".
As the reality dawns on those committees, with the benefit of our GSD Regional Events actually taking place, and with the exciting developments unfolding for the future of GSD Regional Events, I feel sure GSD breed club committees will find it very attractive for their club to hold GSD Regional Events. They will then have to consider what they will need to do in order for their club to hold them.
Dynamics will dictate our progress, and we all need to influence them carefully and positively.
I feel sure more exciting information will be available shortly. Please support the GSD League and JOIN the GSD League, they can and will lead us to a wonderful future for our GSD, right here in Great Britain.
IMPORTANT NOTE: There are TEN classes out of TWELVE classes at the GSD League “Regional Event” which require NO training and obtaining of German SV qualifications.
It is also IMPORTANT to note, The Kennel Club cannot take ANY ACTION whatsoever against any GSD or owner for participating in these GSD Regional Events. As I have been stating - they are FULLY INCLUSIVE.
David Payne
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