Ethical or not German Shepherd Breeder??? - Page 5

OK. Was the dog originally sold as a breeding prospect?  You said yourself that the Breeder would take the dog back and sell you one with breeding rights. (responsible).  The original buyer most likely told the breeder, "we just want a pet, we're going to get him fixed."  In which case...neutering would remove the testicles even if they are not descended.
The breeder was willing to transfer paperwork on the current dog to you (shows a willingness to work with someone who's clueless)  Most Breeders I know have two contracts, one on breeding that guarentees testicles, ears, teeth, so on and so forth...and one for pets that covers general health and does NOT include disqualifying faults such as testicles (that are supposed to be removed), missing teeth, etc...the average pet buyer has no clue what the standard is let alone what faults are and they don't care.  They want a healthy, happy, puppy family pet..
I personally would not have sold a dog to YOU, especially if you told me you wanted to breed "one time"   and that you had NO PLAN to show.  It is the one-time, throw two dogs together people that have puppies that end up in shelters and gets PETA pointing the finger saying "bad breeder, bad breeder"
What legitimate breeder breeds one time?  Breeding is a life long committment, all the hours spent researching, money spent in travel to evaluate homes, studs, potential breeding stock, the dissappointments in failed breedings, the joy in seeing one of your breeding in the ring or any competition...There is no "breed one time"
As to the breeder having two other dogs living normal lives...it's probably true and those owners probably swear they have the perfect dogs.  And 2 out of how many?  This breeder may be trying to eliminate where the problem is but you would not know that...because "one time" breeders dont care to do any of the real dirty work involved in breeding.
Furthermore, MOST vets are anti-breeder and they tell people ANYTHING to be able to say MUST spay/neuter.  I have known vets that could not find testicles..hell, I have known Judges that didn't notice on a young pup if they were not there.
HAVE YOU checked the testicles?  When they are young and stressed....like at a vet visit, the testicles will draw up...and so, because you have no idea what you are doing, they may infact be there and you don't know it..
You are lucky, because If I had been the Breeder and you had called me I would have been polite as hell got some information from you, come to your location with my copy of a contract with the original owner that states that the dog would come back to me to be re-homed, and the local Sherriff, and after identifying my dog, would have taken him back so that he didn't end up in the hands of a one-time...(I am not going to say breeder because it is an insult to true breeders)...so a one time dog pimp. 

 

 

Bottom line is this! the ethical and responsible breeders who breed GSD : are ultimately responsible for what they market and sell! Now since the GSD has a parent organization which introduced this breed and marketed it and established rules governing it's developement! breeders who are BENIFITTING from the reputation established by that organization: Are ( I want to say morally and honor bound) ; but I find those traits scarce in the GSD world so far!  Obligated to stay within the boundries established by that organization!  so to sell a GSD without fully descinded testicles is in my opinion wrong!  With out a clear and concise contract explaining the owners responsibilities in such as case is wrong. Refusing to not take a dog back is also wrong! If the dog carries your name it will be your name drug through the mud if the buyer is legitamely unsatisfied! Your reputation will be made or broken on the way you do business! But that is just my opinion and I have been called  unreasonable by many people. I just believe it is advantagous to do the right thing!

VKF and Silbersee said it all that needs to be said..

Number one problem is   YOU BOUGHT THE DOG FROM A SECOND PARTY....NEVER MIND THE PHONE CALL...TO THE ORIGINAL BREEDER..IN OUR WORLD....WE DO NOT DO BUSINESS  BY PHONE MESSAGES...I HAVE NO IDEA WHO IS ON THE OTHER LINE OF A PHONE...YES, I WILL TELL  YOU I WILL WORK WITH YOU, BUT NOT UNTIL I SEE THE GREEN OF YOUR EYES AND HAVE NAME , PHONE NUMBER AND A TALK WITH YOU...

I AM NOT A BIG  named breeder, but I do not let anyone resell my dogs..Contract is binding...I have first choice bring back to me..   

Every breed on the face of this earth, has faults like   testicles disappearing and not descending,   hips that are not passable for ofa certification due to HD or other...and you cannot just say    THe breeder is not ethical because that pup ended up with a fault.....Yes, but if full disclosure was done , you will never know...YOU BOUGHT IT second HAND...

YOU HAVE TO HAVE WRITTEN contracts not someones word . Sorry business is business.  You were not given any guarantees nor were you the party that bought the pup from this breeder..  Sounds like a drama and I would not want in the middle of it either...I would have probably told you the same thing...Sorry,,,if you want another pup,,bring me that  one , if it is mine, and I will sell you one that is breedable with all its fundamentals with a hip guarantee with no breeding rights period.

Can you prove that is the same pup the Canada breeder sold the person you bought it from??? no, you cannot.  is it tatooed??is it chipped and registered to that breeder as the pup he ./she sold to the person you answered out of an internet/newspaper?>> no you cannot...maybe it isnt even the dog the breeder sold him/her??did that cross your mind..It is done all the time...

divmstr1988

"Recently I filed a complaint against one of the top breeders (Mittelwest) here in the United States with the GSDCA-WDA, I was also going to file with the USA but received a bit of resistance from a couple of their Board members. My complaint charged Mittelwest with coloring dogs (some of you may remember my post back in April just before the USA Sieger show in Illinois), also with straightening several dogs tails, one of those happened to be a male I co-owned with this breeder. Who as it turned out the breeder along with an SV judge/German breeder, who she also has business with, broke a bone in his tail, while straightening it, as shown on x-rays."

If what you say is true and you can substantiate your claims, you should report the tail breaking incidents to the AKC. If the AKC upholds the the charges filed by the plaintiff, such a breeder could be disciplined and lose lifetime AKC privileges (not able to register litters with AKC, sign a litter registration as a stud dog owner, transfer title of dogs, etc.).

While it does derive considerable revenue as a breed registry, the AKC is unlikely to tolerate this these breaches of ethics by a breeder. In fact, I am aware of several well-known breeders (of both German and American lines) having been severely sanctioned by the AKC in past years.

Furthermore, I believe that the WDA is ethically bound to report proof of alterations in the appearance of dogs to both the GSDCA and to the AKC, Similarly, charges against the German judge shout to be filed with the SV.

For those who are WDA members, read the latest Hundegram.   One of these "top breeders" was suspended/fined by WDA.

Louise,

Vomlandholz, beat me, yes read the GSDCA-WDA Hundegram, basically says it all. and yes like I posted on my previous post do have the x-rays and several witnesses to substantiate. I am new to the GSD world, but do believe that they have to report to GSDCA, AKC and SV. I'm not a breeder nor plan to be, so really no idea.
Maybe it's time other ethical Breeders stand up against the ones that think they are above all rules, and protect the dogs they say they care so much for. Instead of letting others do their dirty work since they are afraid of what it may do to their reputations, or that losing revenue from a large breeder will affect number of shows available since the breeder with large entries paid more cost of shows.
Believe me quite a few people put their reputations on the line because of this, and had to put up with constant rumors and insults from many others. I do applaude those that stood firm for what they believed in, and for the WDA for doing what was right.

Tony

From the WDA Hundegram received today:

"The second complaint, which alleged three separate acts of wrongdoing, was filed against Julie Martinez. After investigation and completion of a hearing conducted in accordance with the GSDCA-WDA bylaws and Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 10th Edition, with Danny J. Spreitler, President, presiding as the hearing officer, the hearing committee found Ms. Martinez guilty of two acts of wrongdoing. As a result, (a) Ms. Martinez's membership rights and privileges are suspended for a period of six months commencing July 12, 2009 and ending on January 11, 2010; (b) She is fined $6,000.00, payable immediately to the GSDCA-WDA, (c) She is placed on probation for a period of three years commencing July 12, 2009 and ending on July 11, 2012, and (d) the violation by Ms. Martinez of any rules of the GSDCA-WDA during the period of probation shall result in her expulsion as a member of the GSDCA-WDA."

Let us not forget the GSDCA, AKC, and the SV. We must reciprocity with all organizations including USA--IMO. This may only be the tip of a very large iceberg.

Do we need vigilante law: "a tail for a tail"?

Thank you, Tony and others, for your courage. The NASS rules have also veen amended:

"6. NASS Rule Changes
· When entering a dog in a GSDCA-WDA sanctioned conformation show, the participant, including without limitation the dog's owner, the owner's representative and the exhibitor expressly grants permission to the GSDCA-WDA to take, examine and analyze samples of the dog's coat to determine whether the color or pigmentation of the dog's coat has been manipulated or altered. The sample may be taken by the judge or any person designated by either the judge or the GSDCA-WDA. Such samples shall be sent to the GSDCA-WDA Office for examination and analysis. If it is determined that the pigment of the dog's coat has been manipulated or altered in any manner, then the cost of the examination and analysis shall be borne by the owner and the show rating awarded to the dog at the show shall become null and void ab initio. A Disciplinary Complaint shall be lodged automatically against the responsible parties, including without limitation the dog's owner, the owner's representative and the exhibitor. If it is determined that the pigment of the dog's coat has not been manipulated, then the cost of the examination and analysis shall be borne by the GSDCA-WDA.

· No dog that has had any procedure performed upon it or any device that has been applied to it may be presented in any GSDCA-WDA conformation show, if such procedure or device misleads or deceives a judge about the true condition of a dog at a conformation show. If it is determined that any dog entered into a GSDCA-WDA sanctioned conformation show has been unacceptably altered, then (a) the show rating awarded to said dog shall become null and void ab initio and (b) a disciplinary complaint shall be lodged automatically against the parties who are responsible for the unacceptable alterations, including without limitation the dog's owner, the owner's representative and the exhibitor. In such an instance, (a) the dog shall be banned from all future GSDCA-WDA events and (b) the GSDCA-WDA membership of the parties responsible for such unacceptable alterations, including without limitation the owner, the owner's representative and the exhibitor, shall be terminated. For purposes of this provision, temporary ear forms applied to or used on a dog's ears shall not disqualify the dog from presentation in any GSDCA-WDA conformation show."

Several years ago, after a USA breed show/survey was finished, an exhibitor went to the körmeister and asked what could be done with the curly tails on several of her dogs. Before God and everyone (including a breed warden), the judge reached down to the tail of each dog and yanked them sharply and quickly. The curls disappeared and each tail fell slack! A few jaws fell slack as well.

Do we need vigilante law: "a tail for a tail"?


I don't think we need vigilante law, what we need is for people to realize these dogs are living creatures that are under our care, protection and depend on us. We are here to protect, and enjoy them, not use them for our personal gains.
Just to make this clear to everyone on this site, and I have said it many times before. This was not done out of spite, for financial gains, nor as a personal vandeta. She was actually a friend until I left.
This was done basically because I nor any of the other that stood up for what we believed in and  that have left, if I may speak for them. Did not believe in what was being done to the dogs. Trophies are not worth losing ones integrity over, nor can any of us cheat another especially a friend.  we and many others competed to enjoy are dogs, yes it's nice to finish in front, but at what cost. What is important to us were the people we met, and were able to compete with in a spirit of friendly competition.

Divmstr 1988,
I am so glad that you spoke up for the dogs, as they cannot speak for themselves. You are not a follower, but a leader, and not a Julie wanna be. It shows to all that the dogs come first to you , WIN or LOSE! You stood up to her, and not many of her followers will. They are under her thumb!
Did she take your dog away from you?
Dawn