Linebreeding on Norbo Ben Ju? - Page 5

Appreciate the feedback Hans.  That does clarify things, and puts a pinhole into the rumor balloon, before it took off fully.

Having said that, I personally do love Norbo a lot and like having him on the pedigree close-up, since he is rated as having bedrock stable nerves, which in turn is useful in channeling drives well.

Seems logical that if Norbo is obsolete, then All dogs from the same time frame are also obsolete. So using that rational, no point line breeding on any dog, also I don't know of any good breeders who are line breeding in order to recreate a dog. Seems like if Norbo's genes still influence,,(positive and negative) then he can't obsolete any more than Grim is obsolete. Perhaps a dog ten generations back can be called obsolete. JMO

 Yes you are right. We linebreed only if we want to fix ( make stronger) a specific gene/ trait. We do not linebreed to recreate a dog from past . That is a nostalgia breeding which is not advisable.  I like Norbo and I like to see Norbo in the pedigree too. He brought < pigment , strong bone, uncompromising temperament, and if the Titus kicked in he brought great hips. In ordere to get great hips I like to linebreed on Titus where one of the dogs is Norbo. But missing testicles are the consequence.  
Hans 

Thank you, very clear explanation and I appreciate that. I would like reiterate, so far (perhaps luck of genetics) there have been no undescended testicles in any of my 3-4 Norbo progeny. :)

I line breed to create working dogs....period. I really don't understand nostalgia breeding, but I understand working breeding. When some people talk about dogs from the past they are talking about German Shepherds that easily converted to working, utility, of family dogs. This is the legacy of the breed. If the dogs bred today can continue this legacy....to me they are good dogs. I line breed to bring balance back to recreating a dog that has that utility balance. The different lines have in some cases veered away from utility and work. If people think these creations are better German Shepherds......Well good for them. But at the end of the day the breed should be judged by its end use and how easy is it for the dogs to maintained the working legacy. Of course some see things differently, I understand that, but there are some great dogs out there today, but there are also specialized dogs out there that don't represent utility or work and I refuse to concede their superiority because they exist now. I have to see it in their end use.

omgbs, jinipo has become a puppy mill and sells inferior dogs.you make more money with sport dogs over the hard working dogs never doubt...  the fact that he is a great breeder..

Sable59,
Not sure if you are talking to me or not.
I agree Jinopo is a puppy mill and has been for a long time, not, just became one.
However, I think they do know what they are doing when it comes to genetics and breeding.
I think the proof of not using Norbo in the breeding program much anymore should tell you something also.
If they were just in it for the money they would be using Norbo all the time in their breedings, and, holy crap, if they line-bred on him they could hold an auction and sell pups to the highest bidders.
He is an easy sell, especially to people here in the U.S.
Having said all of that, I'll also say that I have zero desire to obtain a dog from them, so, please don't think I'm a groupie trying to defend them. I'm just calling it as I see it.

As for equating Norbo to a "hard working dog" please let me know what he did in his "working career"?
He was a sport dog and the only reason anyone on this board knows of him, other than a few people on here who saw him compete, is because he was a sport dog that competed 6 times in international sport dog competition.

The other thing that I would like to know from those who have chimed in that they did line-breed on Norbo, is why?
I understand and believe that Norbo was a great dog, but, what were the goals of the line-breeding?
Again, I know it's an easy sell, probably a nice brag also, but, hopefully there was more.

(From Prager: "By doing so you would be  trowing what was stabilized or made better through selective breeding out of the window. The only reason for that would be to just misguided  nostalgia efford or worse just to make money on a legend.")

I am not against linebreeding when done thoughtfully, but, excellent words Hans!
I wish more people saw this as the misguided goal of way too many who linebreed on dogs, especially here in the U.S.
Every time I see an ad for pups and the first thing pointed out is the line-breeding, especially the close linebreedings, you pretty much know that the goal was making money off of a legend. For those trying to re-create the dog and doing close line-breedings, but, have zero intimate knowledge of the dog, like owning it, training it or handling it, or at the least knowing the person who does, is also a big red flag for me.
The breeding, if well thought out, should stand on its own.

Ogbs,, I suppose your directing all those insults at me about "chiming in". All I'm going to say to you is you are WRONG, ABSOLUTELY WRONG in your assumptions and acustions as to motivation for line breeding on Norbo. You will not find his name mentioned anywhere by me except for this thread, which I'm sorry, now, that I even bothered to answer the OP's question by sharing experience I had. You make too many assumptions that are WAY OFF BASE. Condemn, no matter what, condemn, even when you don't know that facts. Your comments about any line bred Norbo dogs you said you saw was Complete opposite of the other people's observations of dogs L/b on Norbo. So you should be able to deduce from that, that you might be making wrong assumptions as why or why not Jinopo has a kennel full of double, triple Norbo ped dogs in their kennel.

Ogbs, do you know what a puppy mill is? You contradict yourself using Jinpo's breeding expertise to support your argument and then calling them a puppy mill. Puppy mills don't have any concern for what's in a pedigree much less the dog it belongs to; it's random breeding for volume. Ya can't be a creator of " legends" and a puppy mill at the same time ; the two are a contradiction in terms.. I seldom advertise and if I do, it is not by touting dogs that are, using your word here, " legends". Maybe you were not directing your insults at me, maybe you were. Either way, you don't make much sense.

This is directed at noone....lol, but just a general statement.....there are many many legends in the breed performancewise that should not be linebred on for many sundry reasons. Thats not directed at Norbo or any speific dog in general, you do your homework....some dogs more is better and with some dogs more is worse. Thats where experience and information comes in to make those types of decisions. Norbo and Cordon are both legends.....I look more favorably on Cordon for linebreeding than I do Norbo....but thats in the context of the dogs I like, the end use of the dog, the type of dog, and who the other side of the equation is. But others may see a value in linebreeding on him for what they are trying to acheive and the their end use.
One last thing that OGBS and Prager brought up that I agree with, when doing things like linebreeding (or for that matter any breeding), you have to have an idea where you are going in the future with the breeding; not just the litter itself.