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by johan77 on 22 September 2010 - 16:09
Jim,
how do you evaluate a dual purpose dog, I did a serach but didn´t find the old thread you spoke of where the details were discussed.
how do you evaluate a dual purpose dog, I did a serach but didn´t find the old thread you spoke of where the details were discussed.
by Prager on 22 September 2010 - 17:09
One of my clients send me an email and added to the cost of dogs:
You forgot papers transfers, training equipment, dealing with sellers to buy the dogs, I know my friend this business is not easy! Then you have the police who rejects dogs for ridiculous reasons, dealing with late Payment, bank costs. Customs , traffic normally 2 hrs just traffic alone in nyc!, homesick dogs, wormings just to mention a few!
You forgot papers transfers, training equipment, dealing with sellers to buy the dogs, I know my friend this business is not easy! Then you have the police who rejects dogs for ridiculous reasons, dealing with late Payment, bank costs. Customs , traffic normally 2 hrs just traffic alone in nyc!, homesick dogs, wormings just to mention a few!
by Slamdunc on 22 September 2010 - 22:09
Duke and Johan,
Here is our performance and evaluation tests for a dual purpose K9, copied but edited from other thread:
We test the dogs in a somewhat standardized fashion so we can rate all of the dogs on the same scale. However, depending what we see we will make some changes with each dog we test. Most of the dogs we test are "green" and range from 12 months to 3 years. By "green" the dog usually has little training, but all of the dogs we see have some initial training. There really is no such thing as a truly "green" dog these days.
First we have a handler take the dog out in a field and just walk around, no stimulation and we test for gun shyness / sharpness. From a distance we fire a gun and observe the reaction, we move closer and fire again. Then we move towards the dog and fire. I like a gun fire neutral dog, aware of the sound but not overly concerned by it. I will end the test right there and move to the next dog if I see an adverse reaction. An aggressive reaction is ok as long as it is directed towards the person firing and not the handler. I prefer the dog to be alert and not aggressive to the gunfire until the person begins to move closer and fires while challenging the dog.
Next, we will test for ball, retrieve and hunt drive. We will throw several items and see the dogs interest, we will play with the dog and see how it reacts. We may expose the dog to some outdoor environmental stimulus like a playground and steps and a slide to see how it reacts. At this point we are looking at temperament and structure. We will do some DM tests and watch the dog run and jump. If we determine the dog is sound and has a good temperament we will move on to the bite work.
I will approach the dog from a distance suspiciously wearing a sleeve and watch the dog reaction. I will then throw the sleeve and continue to the dog taking a defensive approach. This is where I approach with no equipment and begin to pressure the dog. The dog must key on me and not the sleeve and really impress me that he will bite me for real. I often get close enough to touch the dog and the dog has to turn on and be very serious. I am not going to discuss in any detail on this forum how I accomplish this. People who are serious about working dogs will understand how to do this, others will not and explaining it will further confuse them.
The dogs that impress me as being serious with self confidence and real aggression will move forward to the next phase of testing. I am not easily impressed and expect a lot from a potential Police K-9.
continued......
Here is our performance and evaluation tests for a dual purpose K9, copied but edited from other thread:
We test the dogs in a somewhat standardized fashion so we can rate all of the dogs on the same scale. However, depending what we see we will make some changes with each dog we test. Most of the dogs we test are "green" and range from 12 months to 3 years. By "green" the dog usually has little training, but all of the dogs we see have some initial training. There really is no such thing as a truly "green" dog these days.
First we have a handler take the dog out in a field and just walk around, no stimulation and we test for gun shyness / sharpness. From a distance we fire a gun and observe the reaction, we move closer and fire again. Then we move towards the dog and fire. I like a gun fire neutral dog, aware of the sound but not overly concerned by it. I will end the test right there and move to the next dog if I see an adverse reaction. An aggressive reaction is ok as long as it is directed towards the person firing and not the handler. I prefer the dog to be alert and not aggressive to the gunfire until the person begins to move closer and fires while challenging the dog.
Next, we will test for ball, retrieve and hunt drive. We will throw several items and see the dogs interest, we will play with the dog and see how it reacts. We may expose the dog to some outdoor environmental stimulus like a playground and steps and a slide to see how it reacts. At this point we are looking at temperament and structure. We will do some DM tests and watch the dog run and jump. If we determine the dog is sound and has a good temperament we will move on to the bite work.
I will approach the dog from a distance suspiciously wearing a sleeve and watch the dog reaction. I will then throw the sleeve and continue to the dog taking a defensive approach. This is where I approach with no equipment and begin to pressure the dog. The dog must key on me and not the sleeve and really impress me that he will bite me for real. I often get close enough to touch the dog and the dog has to turn on and be very serious. I am not going to discuss in any detail on this forum how I accomplish this. People who are serious about working dogs will understand how to do this, others will not and explaining it will further confuse them.
The dogs that impress me as being serious with self confidence and real aggression will move forward to the next phase of testing. I am not easily impressed and expect a lot from a potential Police K-9.
continued......
by Slamdunc on 22 September 2010 - 22:09
After I test them with out equipment and push the dog's into defense I'll give them a bite to relieve stress and see how their bite is. Any dogs that back down here or go into avoidance are out. I am looking for a hard committed strike and a hard bite. Full and calm is a bonus, but not a necessity for a Police K9. The bite must be hard and the dog intense. I will then do an old fashioned "courage test" Running away from the dog for 50 or 60 yards and having the handler send the dog. I will turn and charge into the dog and try to pressure them again. If I can run them off or cause them to really gather they are out of the process. If I see a highly prey driven, equipment fixated dog I will carry a second sleeve and throw it in front of the dog on the courage test. You will be surprised how many dogs will do a cart wheel over the sleeve on the ground and bite that sleeve ignoring me running straight at them. I will grab the dogs leash and attempt to get it to drop the thrown sleeve and turn and engage me. Points go to the dogs that will do this. Remember, these are potential Police dogs, not pets and not sport dogs.
Next we will use either a suit or sleeve depending on the situation and run off into the woods out of site to see how well the dog pursues and engages. We are looking for speed here and an intense fight in the woods.
The dogs that pass so far are taken into a building with slick floors and small rooms. Here we test environmental issues. This is done in a full suit. We will take the dogs on a bite up stairs and into dark rooms and close the door. We want dogs that stay on the bite regardless of the stress of the situation. We grade the dogs in each step of the process and will only consider the dogs that pass everything and make it through till the end.
We don't even test the dogs for their tracking ability. If a dog has sufficient drives and does well in all of the tests we do, we can teach them to track. Some of the dogs we see have never seen a bite suit so I will also use a sleeve. Almost all of them have seen a sleeve. The big things I look for are a self assured, outgoing social temperament. Good with gunfire, and high drive. I also want the dogs to have natural aggression and want to bite for "real" when confronted. The dogs can never show avoidance, submission or back down or not commit in the fight. In the past month or so I tested about 20 dogs for our PD from different K9 vendors, I would only have considered two of the 20 offered for sale for Police K9's. The rest didn't make it through our selection process and I chose an 11 month old Mali, who is turning out to be fantastic.
Hope that answers your question,
Jim
Next we will use either a suit or sleeve depending on the situation and run off into the woods out of site to see how well the dog pursues and engages. We are looking for speed here and an intense fight in the woods.
The dogs that pass so far are taken into a building with slick floors and small rooms. Here we test environmental issues. This is done in a full suit. We will take the dogs on a bite up stairs and into dark rooms and close the door. We want dogs that stay on the bite regardless of the stress of the situation. We grade the dogs in each step of the process and will only consider the dogs that pass everything and make it through till the end.
We don't even test the dogs for their tracking ability. If a dog has sufficient drives and does well in all of the tests we do, we can teach them to track. Some of the dogs we see have never seen a bite suit so I will also use a sleeve. Almost all of them have seen a sleeve. The big things I look for are a self assured, outgoing social temperament. Good with gunfire, and high drive. I also want the dogs to have natural aggression and want to bite for "real" when confronted. The dogs can never show avoidance, submission or back down or not commit in the fight. In the past month or so I tested about 20 dogs for our PD from different K9 vendors, I would only have considered two of the 20 offered for sale for Police K9's. The rest didn't make it through our selection process and I chose an 11 month old Mali, who is turning out to be fantastic.
Hope that answers your question,
Jim
by duke1965 on 23 September 2010 - 03:09
thanx jim , your not overtesting so to speak , but I find it amazing that vendors offer so many dogs that are noy up for the challenge , as they obviously know what you are looking for
is there a certain part of your testing where many dogs fail , that you would call an overall problem
is there a certain part of your testing where many dogs fail , that you would call an overall problem
by Slamdunc on 23 September 2010 - 04:09
Duke,
we are seeing younger and younger dogs with less foundation training than we did even a year or two ago. Some dogs we rule out because they lack the drive and intensity that we want. We want high drive dogs and aren't interested in marginal dogs or duds. We drove several hours to a particular vendor and tested 6 dogs, there wasn't one I would consider. Most dogs are ok with the gunfire, we will pass on some for environmental issues and occasionally structural issues or teeth issues. I tested one dog that I advised the vendor may have DM and recommended a vet visit for the dog.
Most of the dogs fail in the bite work, some won't engage for real, some go into avoidance. Civil, very serious aggression is critically important to me for a Police dog. Self confidence is also important as well as a fairly social temperament. Some will only bite equipment and are too heavily loaded in prey and equipment fixated. We just don't have the time to spend to fix those issues, so we don't want to start out with them. Some dogs have environmental issues on slick floors, dark rooms, stairs etc while being pressured in bite work.
I'd say 1/3 were ruled out for lack of drive, and the rest for issues in bite work. I'm sure many of these dogs were sold to other Police Dept's and they may be fine for them.
I had an issue with a vendor recently and explained to him exactly what I was looking for. I was very disappointed with some of the dogs he brought for us to test. It seemed after we rejected the first batch he suddenly had 3 more dogs for us to test. They were the best of what he showed us. I was definitely irritated that these dogs weren't brought out first and let them know. We walked out with out buying a dog. I very clearly explained my displeasure and that it had better never happen again. I left saying I wouldn't do business with them again, unfortunately we bought a really nice dog from them a month later. There aren't that many vendors close by and I didn't want to burn my bridges. But I am very wary of them now.
Jim
we are seeing younger and younger dogs with less foundation training than we did even a year or two ago. Some dogs we rule out because they lack the drive and intensity that we want. We want high drive dogs and aren't interested in marginal dogs or duds. We drove several hours to a particular vendor and tested 6 dogs, there wasn't one I would consider. Most dogs are ok with the gunfire, we will pass on some for environmental issues and occasionally structural issues or teeth issues. I tested one dog that I advised the vendor may have DM and recommended a vet visit for the dog.
Most of the dogs fail in the bite work, some won't engage for real, some go into avoidance. Civil, very serious aggression is critically important to me for a Police dog. Self confidence is also important as well as a fairly social temperament. Some will only bite equipment and are too heavily loaded in prey and equipment fixated. We just don't have the time to spend to fix those issues, so we don't want to start out with them. Some dogs have environmental issues on slick floors, dark rooms, stairs etc while being pressured in bite work.
I'd say 1/3 were ruled out for lack of drive, and the rest for issues in bite work. I'm sure many of these dogs were sold to other Police Dept's and they may be fine for them.
I had an issue with a vendor recently and explained to him exactly what I was looking for. I was very disappointed with some of the dogs he brought for us to test. It seemed after we rejected the first batch he suddenly had 3 more dogs for us to test. They were the best of what he showed us. I was definitely irritated that these dogs weren't brought out first and let them know. We walked out with out buying a dog. I very clearly explained my displeasure and that it had better never happen again. I left saying I wouldn't do business with them again, unfortunately we bought a really nice dog from them a month later. There aren't that many vendors close by and I didn't want to burn my bridges. But I am very wary of them now.
Jim
by snajper69 on 23 September 2010 - 20:09
"It seemed after we rejected the first batch he suddenly had 3 more dogs for us to test." lol I wonder if that was because he wanted to get ride of the first ones first? For once I know quite few departments that one thing they are not looking for are civil dogs ;) so maybe he just read you wrong?
by Slamdunc on 24 September 2010 - 07:09
Snajper,
He definitely wanted to move the first bunch he showed us. I don't think he thought we were going to be as thorough and as tough as we were in our testing. After he watched us test one of his dogs he was embarrassed and said he was sending the dog back because of the way it tested and worked. I think I am very clear and right to the point when dealing with people. I told him exactly what I thought of his sales technique and his choice of dogs for us. I thought we had a good relationship and I let his guys use our buildings and facilities to train and they often asked to come train with us. I never beat him up over price or tried to bargain with him, all I asked was that he showed us good dogs and not garbage.
I no longer let them use our facilities and buildings or help them with training, it is strictly business.
Jim
He definitely wanted to move the first bunch he showed us. I don't think he thought we were going to be as thorough and as tough as we were in our testing. After he watched us test one of his dogs he was embarrassed and said he was sending the dog back because of the way it tested and worked. I think I am very clear and right to the point when dealing with people. I told him exactly what I thought of his sales technique and his choice of dogs for us. I thought we had a good relationship and I let his guys use our buildings and facilities to train and they often asked to come train with us. I never beat him up over price or tried to bargain with him, all I asked was that he showed us good dogs and not garbage.
I no longer let them use our facilities and buildings or help them with training, it is strictly business.
Jim
by Blazer30 on 24 September 2010 - 08:09
You sound like a pretty direct guy Slamdunc.
Wonder why this vendor picked you to try to pawn off his crap dogs, the guy must not profile very well. You mind if I ask his name and outfit? Or is that something you rather keep private?
Wonder why this vendor picked you to try to pawn off his crap dogs, the guy must not profile very well. You mind if I ask his name and outfit? Or is that something you rather keep private?
by Slamdunc on 24 September 2010 - 17:09
Blazer,
He has a live product that he was keeping, maintaining, feeding and caring for which gets expensive. I'm sure he didn't want to hold onto dogs for months. Perhaps, he was planning on holding the other dogs back and training them for detection and charging a higher price. He had a story as to why he held the dogs back which I called BS on. Unfortunately, this is the dog business, some dog vendors are like used car salesman. Not all vendors are like this and I didn't think they were; I was wrong. I think he is very good with detection dogs, but not very knowledgeable when it comes to patrol dogs. I have watched his guys training dogs and schools they have run and was not impressed. We have gotten some very good dogs from him in the past and he is local. It is convenient if we ever need to return a dog. He knows he made a mistake and probably shot himself in the foot with us and some neighboring agencies. We all talk to each other and have discussed the situation, and I have stop referring him to other agencies. I have pointed that out to him and that we are looking for new vendors to work with and build a relationship with. When our bids go out the vendors can all see what other vendors we are sending the bids too.
We'll be looking for 2 more dogs in the next 2 or 3 months, one to replace a dog that is retiring and one for a new handler. I'll go and test his dogs because he may have a good one, but if I can find one equally as good else where I'll skip him in a heartbeat.
I wouldn't put the companies name out there on this post because I do not refer them any longer and don't want to advertise or knock them publicly.
FWIW,
Jim
He has a live product that he was keeping, maintaining, feeding and caring for which gets expensive. I'm sure he didn't want to hold onto dogs for months. Perhaps, he was planning on holding the other dogs back and training them for detection and charging a higher price. He had a story as to why he held the dogs back which I called BS on. Unfortunately, this is the dog business, some dog vendors are like used car salesman. Not all vendors are like this and I didn't think they were; I was wrong. I think he is very good with detection dogs, but not very knowledgeable when it comes to patrol dogs. I have watched his guys training dogs and schools they have run and was not impressed. We have gotten some very good dogs from him in the past and he is local. It is convenient if we ever need to return a dog. He knows he made a mistake and probably shot himself in the foot with us and some neighboring agencies. We all talk to each other and have discussed the situation, and I have stop referring him to other agencies. I have pointed that out to him and that we are looking for new vendors to work with and build a relationship with. When our bids go out the vendors can all see what other vendors we are sending the bids too.
We'll be looking for 2 more dogs in the next 2 or 3 months, one to replace a dog that is retiring and one for a new handler. I'll go and test his dogs because he may have a good one, but if I can find one equally as good else where I'll skip him in a heartbeat.
I wouldn't put the companies name out there on this post because I do not refer them any longer and don't want to advertise or knock them publicly.
FWIW,
Jim
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