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by Bob McKown on 02 August 2009 - 11:08
Rik:
Your opinions and views are always appreciated and expected because without how do we get a fulll view of thought about the breed.
My thoughts are this, in a perfect world there are no W/L S/L division all dogs must have a good working structre with proper drives for the work. I hear people (and on this board)say that the german shepherd has been taken over by the Mali as a working dog and to some effect the Germand Shepherd working dog has been breed more towards the prey drive for the sport influence is this good for the breed as a whole? No not in my opinion but it does favor a sport influence.
The sport should not influence the breeding of the dog. The test should evaluate the preformance of the dog for all lines of dogs period. I,m tired of whatching Seiger shows where the helper can be seen obviously helping the dog to ingage,or dogs crawling up to the helper and getting 1 k9 in the sleeve and getting called a good drip.
I,m not bashing s/l lines I,ve seen nervey working dogs that should never be on the field let alone bred. until the test is given with out influence of the sport or S/L dogs and is a independent test of trainabality,courage,temperment,drive and working structre will will not advance to the breeding we shold be at.
Yes politics play a MAJOR hand here as well as MONEY the 2 words that ruin everything it touch,s I,m not damning anyone who profits from the sale of a dog just unfortunetly the sales of dogs are having too much influence on our breed.
In my opinion when the structre of a dog becomes a hinderence to it,s abality to work in a proper manner then it is to much of a extreme as is when a dogs drives are to the extent they are not trustable or steady in public venue as is described in the description of the dog then it also is a detractor to the breed.
Oh Rik my friend, don,t put me in the "serious" catigory life is too short to be too serious. I enjoy the partnership of a fine dog as well as a fine friend, at some point I hope to meet you and include you in the latter.
Your opinions and views are always appreciated and expected because without how do we get a fulll view of thought about the breed.
My thoughts are this, in a perfect world there are no W/L S/L division all dogs must have a good working structre with proper drives for the work. I hear people (and on this board)say that the german shepherd has been taken over by the Mali as a working dog and to some effect the Germand Shepherd working dog has been breed more towards the prey drive for the sport influence is this good for the breed as a whole? No not in my opinion but it does favor a sport influence.
The sport should not influence the breeding of the dog. The test should evaluate the preformance of the dog for all lines of dogs period. I,m tired of whatching Seiger shows where the helper can be seen obviously helping the dog to ingage,or dogs crawling up to the helper and getting 1 k9 in the sleeve and getting called a good drip.
I,m not bashing s/l lines I,ve seen nervey working dogs that should never be on the field let alone bred. until the test is given with out influence of the sport or S/L dogs and is a independent test of trainabality,courage,temperment,drive and working structre will will not advance to the breeding we shold be at.
Yes politics play a MAJOR hand here as well as MONEY the 2 words that ruin everything it touch,s I,m not damning anyone who profits from the sale of a dog just unfortunetly the sales of dogs are having too much influence on our breed.
In my opinion when the structre of a dog becomes a hinderence to it,s abality to work in a proper manner then it is to much of a extreme as is when a dogs drives are to the extent they are not trustable or steady in public venue as is described in the description of the dog then it also is a detractor to the breed.
Oh Rik my friend, don,t put me in the "serious" catigory life is too short to be too serious. I enjoy the partnership of a fine dog as well as a fine friend, at some point I hope to meet you and include you in the latter.
by judron55 on 03 August 2009 - 18:08
Bring back the attack out of the blind....scaling wall....no trialing after Sch1 on home field....use a reed stick (clatter like ring)...more man trailing as oppose to the obedience tracking....!
ron
ron
by Rik on 03 August 2009 - 23:08
Bob, I agree with you 100%.
One gsd dog who is capable of being a complete GSD. No w/l or s/l. Just a GSD that is what a GSD is supposed to be.
I have no idea how this can be accomplished. It is now too big of a business. So I guess it is left to the individiual to move toward his own goals.
The Universal Sieger concept seems to be a good goal. But I am somewhat set back at what I expect from the German dog. (S/L) and what I have encountered. If character did not matter to me, then I could have stayed with Am. lines and been way ahead of where I am now.
But also I see good dogs, just no way to realiably sort them out unless one sees them first hand.
Rik
p.s. Bob, I do not include in the "serious" person category. I do however include you in the "serious about the GSD as a breed" category. As always, best.
One gsd dog who is capable of being a complete GSD. No w/l or s/l. Just a GSD that is what a GSD is supposed to be.
I have no idea how this can be accomplished. It is now too big of a business. So I guess it is left to the individiual to move toward his own goals.
The Universal Sieger concept seems to be a good goal. But I am somewhat set back at what I expect from the German dog. (S/L) and what I have encountered. If character did not matter to me, then I could have stayed with Am. lines and been way ahead of where I am now.
But also I see good dogs, just no way to realiably sort them out unless one sees them first hand.
Rik
p.s. Bob, I do not include in the "serious" person category. I do however include you in the "serious about the GSD as a breed" category. As always, best.
by poseidon on 04 August 2009 - 01:08
Quote: Christopher Smith
Bob, if I were to change I would make the Sch1 an undirected search like the one in Mondio and french ring. I would also like to see some type of agility and jumping.
Quote: von sprengkraft
I would like to have the attack on handler reinstated for SchH1. Also, I would love to see the old courage test. When the helper ran away from the dog, then flipped directions and ran toward the dog. It lets you see the drives change in the dog. Let the helpers quit "helping". If a dog will run, show us. Then we wouldn't have to keep seeing some of the weak dogs.
Correct me if I am wrong but breed worthiness test doesn’t necessarily apply only to SchH3 dogs. If a dog has SchH1 and AD that would qualify it for the breed worthy test, so my point is, would it not be better to raise the level for SchH1? This would surely be a positive step for progression. I like the suggestions from both C.Smith and V.sprengkraft above.
I agree that schutzhund has become more of a sport rather than what it originally meant 2 be.
Bob, if I were to change I would make the Sch1 an undirected search like the one in Mondio and french ring. I would also like to see some type of agility and jumping.
Quote: von sprengkraft
I would like to have the attack on handler reinstated for SchH1. Also, I would love to see the old courage test. When the helper ran away from the dog, then flipped directions and ran toward the dog. It lets you see the drives change in the dog. Let the helpers quit "helping". If a dog will run, show us. Then we wouldn't have to keep seeing some of the weak dogs.
Correct me if I am wrong but breed worthiness test doesn’t necessarily apply only to SchH3 dogs. If a dog has SchH1 and AD that would qualify it for the breed worthy test, so my point is, would it not be better to raise the level for SchH1? This would surely be a positive step for progression. I like the suggestions from both C.Smith and V.sprengkraft above.
I agree that schutzhund has become more of a sport rather than what it originally meant 2 be.
by Rik on 04 August 2009 - 01:08
poseidon, I think you are correct. A dog needs only a Sch. 1 for a breed survey.
Rik
Rik
by Langhaar on 04 August 2009 - 10:08
Not read the whole thread, I have not got that long to live, but instead of CHANGING a particular discipline, why not look for versatility in a dog eg one that can compete in more than one discipline which may highlight particular strengths. Eg Working Trials in the UK where the tracking tests are 3 hours old in the top stake, up to 30 legs long, half a mile long and with tiny articles, plus a search square and the agility and obedience sections where the sendaway for example is a little more demanding than that in Schutzhund.
Then there is Agility, Obedience, Rally, herding, AD, KC Good Citizens Tests, FH1 and FH2 etc etc and then you can have a true test of versatility.
Then there is Agility, Obedience, Rally, herding, AD, KC Good Citizens Tests, FH1 and FH2 etc etc and then you can have a true test of versatility.
by svbc1 on 04 August 2009 - 11:08
Langhaar I can see where you are coming from which is great if people have the time to concentrate on all the disiplines.
You mention that the obedience sendaway is more demanding, there will be some who would question that , I heard recently there were some obedience people that were a little disgruntled at a show because they were penalised by a German judge because even though the dogs did the send out they went off course which apparently they would not usually be penalised for but they are in Schutzhund.
You mention that the obedience sendaway is more demanding, there will be some who would question that , I heard recently there were some obedience people that were a little disgruntled at a show because they were penalised by a German judge because even though the dogs did the send out they went off course which apparently they would not usually be penalised for but they are in Schutzhund.
by Langhaar on 04 August 2009 - 16:08
Maybe there is some confusion, I meant the obedience (control) section of WT where the sendaway can be up to 200m + away with one or more redirects of the same distance.
the protection round is also more demanding as the various scenarios are endless.
by crhuerta on 05 August 2009 - 18:08
I would like them to put the attack out the blind back into the ScH1 routine......
by FREESPIRIT on 06 August 2009 - 23:08
Von Sprengkraft's thoughts are what would make for real changes and improvements.
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