Linebreeding on Norbo Ben Ju? - Page 4

Thank you for being so clear and concise, Gustav. Your explanation confirms my belief that many very good dogs that are not found in some Czech pedigrees is because they don't conform to the hyper prey drive wanted in " sport" dogs today. In other words, they don't sell as well. If you don't desire hyper prey drive dogs, you have to "make" your own combinations when breeding rather than doing what is in vogue at some leading European kennels. Please correct me if I'm off. :) I meant: " not found heavily used in some current cz ped".

"My take was not so specialized at specific tasks but versitile enough to perform a wide variety of tasks."

I think you got it right.

Gustav, not gonna call you old but you sound like my father...:o)

@ gsdpack....Thanks! Lol. And I agree with the variety also....line breeding or even inbreeding as others have stated should help set a foundation for more than just a single dog.

Gustav, that was poetry  I'll go on to further state that I think that i "short-chaged" Jiri with that quotation as his reasons were far more expansive and detailed in comparison to my lacklustre account for his logic. I'll look his comments up and put them on here directly. That was clear and beautiful nonetheless.

As I am reading some of these posts it seems to me it got off track by maybe what I said. Just to clarify what I wrote this was in no way a down play on Norbo or any of the old great dogs. In fact it had nothing to do with SL, sport, what so ever. It was about what the owner, trainer of Norbo was asked about why he did not breed back on a specific dog. And my understanding  of what he said.

Look at the v litter, Ingo being the sire of that litter. produced Vanda Ps, Verva Ps, and Volf Ps. Vanda produced Zar Ps, Who sired Ary z Valskeho udoli. Excellent dogs.
Verva Ps, who is the grandmother of Titus
Volf Ps, who was the grandfather of Chuligan Ps

Each brought something different to the table, but the same line.

There is no bigger admirer of the old lines than I am, as every thing I have are old working lines. And Gustav You are correct I got my first GSD in 1957, and the good ones were just as good as the good ones now. But you can not clone them by going back to the same particular dog for ever. They either get better or they get worse. I hear all the time how the dogs aren't as good as they were then. There are still good dogs alot of them are working and you don't hear much about them.
Hank

I think B.Andersen puts it well , if you want to linebreed on this line, I would linebreed on norbos father Car, this opens many options and I think Car's qualities are not recognized by many, as he never got the stamp 'legendary '
im linebreeding on the old czech lines and dont see the downsides people mention, health is very good , only no over the top sport/prey drive, which I think is a very good thing
more and more people are recognizing that prey is not everything, my dogs are certified in about anything a dog can get certified in, exept no sportwinners, so they never will be famous LOL, but I love my antique lines

I love my antique Czech/Slovak lines too !  Don't want over-the-top prey at all.   In fact, I would not mind more defense in the mix, and LESS  prey.

I have Norbo once in my girl's pedigree, and see only good things out of that.  Dargo Ha Ja Da is also in there once.  Balli Panta Rei is also in there once and so is Pluto.   Quite a bit of diversity, which I like.  She is a treasured member of my family.

She is not an outcross and does have Grim 5-4 and Titus 5-5 but that is pretty far back and not a close line-breeding.

 One of the reason why there is not much linebreeding done on Norbo is because he is very dominant in some desirable traits and less dominant in some undesirable traits. We like him to pass on the progeny the desirable  and eliminate the undesirable. In this case that is best done by type breeding.  By linebreeding you would strengthen desirable but unfortunately also the undesirable traits. I have made that mistake and that is how I have learned about it.  The undesirable traits are missing testicles and some others. These missing testicles are coming from Titus z PS and ultimately from  Ingo v Rudingen . Another legends. I have linebred on Titus to improve hips and elbows with the understanding that I will have some pups with missing testicles. Unfortunately that is a price of a compromise. However it is a small price to pay if you want to advance forward in the breeding. I and Jiri are not here to produce nostalgia, but we want to produce better and better dogs.  Norbo was an excellent dog back then, but is obsolete these days and there is no need to recreate him by linebreeding or by using his sperm. By doing so you would be  trowing what was stabilized or made better through selective breeding out of the window. The only reason for that would be to just misguided  nostalgia efford or worse just to make money on a legend. 
 One more thing. This has nothing to do with sporting up of today  dogs  and with the money to be made made by selling sport dogs. The z Pohranicni straze dogs in the days "back then" were laughed at that they can not compete in sports, but it had been quickly proven that they could compete quite well and critics had been put in the place, same as it is easy to be proven that any of AlpineK9 or JINOPO lines if trained and handled properly can do police work. Better and better versatility of the breed backed by consistency and stability of the breed  is on our mind. 
 Hans