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by BlackthornGSD on 27 February 2012 - 16:02
advertised "DM free puppies"with only one tested parent. That was later explained away by a friend of the breeder of that litter who felt that it was truth in advertising since the sire tested as an nn normal so could not produce an at risk regardless of the status of the dam.
How is this not true?
Or are you going with the idea that the DNA test is not conclusive?
How is this not true?
Or are you going with the idea that the DNA test is not conclusive?
by leoetta on 27 February 2012 - 17:02
marjorie---"Advertising DM free lines and puppies is deceptive."---
marjorie---"The definition of a fraudulent representation is one is which the party making the statement was aware that it is false or disregards the possibility of it being false."----
First of all my friend nor myself are in no way deceiving nor trying to deceive anyone by testing our dogs and advertising them as such. I test my females as well which is why I say the puppies are DM Clear because the parents are tested Clear, I sell with breeding rights so my females need to be tested. My friend does also have this as part of her ad to try and explain (see the portion I highlighted below), because no we don't truly know what the future may hold except for what the current research tells us and that is all we can go by right now, and that is what most breeders are going by right now. Both her customers as well as mine are all told this information regarding the current research. Most of those that contact me because I test my dogs are up on the current research because they've recently lost a dog due to dm. They are looking for people that are testing their dogs and that is what we are doing. You on the other hand had better watch your words when you are accusing others of being fraudulent or deceptive without knowing anything about someone. You have no idea what we say in emails or over the phone to our clients or what information we give them in handouts, how we will spend two hours on the phone with a client talking about their dog they lost from DM if they are needing an ear to listen, and no it's not about making the sale so please don't go there, because usually those people are still not anywhere near ready for a new dog. The client sets the standard on what they are looking for in a breeder, they have a checklist in their mind and when you meet that checklist then you might be the breeder for them, we are not out there cold calling people and swindling them into buying a DM Free or Clear puppy and telling them 100% to never worry. Thankfully Marjorie it seems as though your opinion is not the majority here and I'm not sure exactly what your agenda is or what you are trying to promote, maybe it is all good and innocent, I don't have the time to read through every one of your posts though to find out. So for the time being I'd lay off the accusations when you really have no information regarding my friends nor my policies regarding DM and our clients and dogs. Nothing has been said about me here but I've put myself in the mix because I test and advertise DM Clear puppies, because that is what the testing and research says they are.
From my friends ad, and yes she has it in bold red letters on the ad ---"*(DM) Degenerative Myelopathy is an inherited debilitating spinal disease that occurs in German Shepherds and other breeds. Because Orian the sire of our litters has been DNA tested DM Clear meaning he does not carry any genes for DM and therefore, none of Orians offspring will ever be at risk for developing this tragic crippling disease according to the most current scientific research."
marjorie---"The definition of a fraudulent representation is one is which the party making the statement was aware that it is false or disregards the possibility of it being false."----
First of all my friend nor myself are in no way deceiving nor trying to deceive anyone by testing our dogs and advertising them as such. I test my females as well which is why I say the puppies are DM Clear because the parents are tested Clear, I sell with breeding rights so my females need to be tested. My friend does also have this as part of her ad to try and explain (see the portion I highlighted below), because no we don't truly know what the future may hold except for what the current research tells us and that is all we can go by right now, and that is what most breeders are going by right now. Both her customers as well as mine are all told this information regarding the current research. Most of those that contact me because I test my dogs are up on the current research because they've recently lost a dog due to dm. They are looking for people that are testing their dogs and that is what we are doing. You on the other hand had better watch your words when you are accusing others of being fraudulent or deceptive without knowing anything about someone. You have no idea what we say in emails or over the phone to our clients or what information we give them in handouts, how we will spend two hours on the phone with a client talking about their dog they lost from DM if they are needing an ear to listen, and no it's not about making the sale so please don't go there, because usually those people are still not anywhere near ready for a new dog. The client sets the standard on what they are looking for in a breeder, they have a checklist in their mind and when you meet that checklist then you might be the breeder for them, we are not out there cold calling people and swindling them into buying a DM Free or Clear puppy and telling them 100% to never worry. Thankfully Marjorie it seems as though your opinion is not the majority here and I'm not sure exactly what your agenda is or what you are trying to promote, maybe it is all good and innocent, I don't have the time to read through every one of your posts though to find out. So for the time being I'd lay off the accusations when you really have no information regarding my friends nor my policies regarding DM and our clients and dogs. Nothing has been said about me here but I've put myself in the mix because I test and advertise DM Clear puppies, because that is what the testing and research says they are.
From my friends ad, and yes she has it in bold red letters on the ad ---"*(DM) Degenerative Myelopathy is an inherited debilitating spinal disease that occurs in German Shepherds and other breeds. Because Orian the sire of our litters has been DNA tested DM Clear meaning he does not carry any genes for DM and therefore, none of Orians offspring will ever be at risk for developing this tragic crippling disease according to the most current scientific research."
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 18:02
I'm one who has faith in the UM DNA test. FWIW, it's good enough for me that puppies from one nn parent that are not intended for breeding be advertised as not being at risk for DM. I think the section above highlighted in red is a very honest representation of DM as it stands today and the status of a litter out of an nn parent. I wish I had said it first.
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 18:02
Sitas Mom, is there any need for anymore participants in that on going DM study?
by marjorie on 27 February 2012 - 18:02
--- >and I'm not sure exactly what your agenda is or what you are trying to promote, maybe it is all good and innocent,
I have a dog in the advnced stages of DM...She is my second DM dog, so if you want to know my agenda, that is it, period, end. I dont want anyone else ot have to live through what I have lived through twice. I am not accusing anyone of fraud- I am giving the definition, legally, of fraudulent representation. i dont even know who your firiend is, so I am not directly accusing any particular person of fraud. However, there is a possibility that the information is incorrect, especially in the light of people having dogs that were declared clear, who have DM. Therefore, it is apparent that the possibility of dogs developing DM despite testing clear is a very real possiblity. One simply cannot igmore facts, and I dont care waht research says, if it is incorrect. If it was not incorrect, a clear dog wouldnt have been proven to had DM, upon necropsy.
I have a dog in the advnced stages of DM...She is my second DM dog, so if you want to know my agenda, that is it, period, end. I dont want anyone else ot have to live through what I have lived through twice. I am not accusing anyone of fraud- I am giving the definition, legally, of fraudulent representation. i dont even know who your firiend is, so I am not directly accusing any particular person of fraud. However, there is a possibility that the information is incorrect, especially in the light of people having dogs that were declared clear, who have DM. Therefore, it is apparent that the possibility of dogs developing DM despite testing clear is a very real possiblity. One simply cannot igmore facts, and I dont care waht research says, if it is incorrect. If it was not incorrect, a clear dog wouldnt have been proven to had DM, upon necropsy.
by BlackthornGSD on 27 February 2012 - 19:02
FWIW, it's good enough for me that puppies from one nn parent that are not intended for breeding be advertised as not being at risk for DM.
Why should their potential breeding matter? Yes, they need to be tested before being bred. But they'll also need to get hip xrays and be evaluated for disqualifying faults and hopefully pass some sort of performance evaluation. You can't put all of that in a short advert--hopefully those things will be covered in future conversations with the breeder/advertiser.
It is tricky though, as to how to present the info publicly--because there is conflicting information out there and I think in 10 years, we will have significantly more information on what is really going on and what is valid.
I DNA tested knowing that there was some doubt as to the completeness of the current DNA test in diagnosing or predicting DM in GSDs. Maybe it only predicts one type of DM or it only indicates a propensity. No matter what, if used appropriately, it can only help improve the health of any puppies produced and the breed overall.
Additionally, I don't think that a healthy +/+ dog should automatically be removed from the breeding--if bred, though, he should only be bred to -/- dogs to make sure that he's not producing puppies with 2 copies of the gene and an increased likelihood of getting the disease. In the future, if more is known about what makes a dog go from "at risk" to "affected," there may be additional tests that will give more info--maybe these at risk but unaffected dogs actually have some valuable gene that prevents the disease from developing. Or maybe we'll find that in GSDs there's more than one gene involved--or a different one--and in that case, it would be foolish to have eliminated unaffected dogs who in fact had no risk of passing on the problem.
So, in conversations with puppy buyers, I tend to say, "The parents tested clear of the gene currently believed to be responsible for DM." But it's not like there's an easy explanation or an easy "yes/no," so I try to explain that this is based on current science and that this information may change as more research is done.
Christine
Why should their potential breeding matter? Yes, they need to be tested before being bred. But they'll also need to get hip xrays and be evaluated for disqualifying faults and hopefully pass some sort of performance evaluation. You can't put all of that in a short advert--hopefully those things will be covered in future conversations with the breeder/advertiser.
It is tricky though, as to how to present the info publicly--because there is conflicting information out there and I think in 10 years, we will have significantly more information on what is really going on and what is valid.
I DNA tested knowing that there was some doubt as to the completeness of the current DNA test in diagnosing or predicting DM in GSDs. Maybe it only predicts one type of DM or it only indicates a propensity. No matter what, if used appropriately, it can only help improve the health of any puppies produced and the breed overall.
Additionally, I don't think that a healthy +/+ dog should automatically be removed from the breeding--if bred, though, he should only be bred to -/- dogs to make sure that he's not producing puppies with 2 copies of the gene and an increased likelihood of getting the disease. In the future, if more is known about what makes a dog go from "at risk" to "affected," there may be additional tests that will give more info--maybe these at risk but unaffected dogs actually have some valuable gene that prevents the disease from developing. Or maybe we'll find that in GSDs there's more than one gene involved--or a different one--and in that case, it would be foolish to have eliminated unaffected dogs who in fact had no risk of passing on the problem.
So, in conversations with puppy buyers, I tend to say, "The parents tested clear of the gene currently believed to be responsible for DM." But it's not like there's an easy explanation or an easy "yes/no," so I try to explain that this is based on current science and that this information may change as more research is done.
Christine
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 19:02
It would matter to me. If I wanted a dog for breeding, I would want both parents to be tested.
I never have and never will advocate for any dog to be withdrawn from breeding due to its DNA DM status.
I never have and never will advocate for any dog to be withdrawn from breeding due to its DNA DM status.
by Abby Normal on 27 February 2012 - 22:02
At last some reason is beginning to emerge. There may be more work to be done to find an additional gene or a different gene or combination of genes. Further research has not and will not stop into DM, and so there is no good reason to stop using the current DM test. The more testing, the more data, the more data, the more results......a much bigger picture, which we just don't have now.
by marjorie on 06 March 2012 - 06:03
I have added a survey on my web site, as per suggestion, to be able to keep track of dogs that have had the OFA DM Test whose results have been contradicted by necrospy, carriers that have developed DM, or progeny of clear dogs who develop DM.The survey can be reached on the http://mzjf.com/test.html page of my website
The direct link to the survey is http://www.mzjf.com/forms/form.cdform.php
I would much appreciate people cross posting so word can get out that information is being gathered as to the accuracy of the test in relation to the German Shepherd Dog. Thank you so much for the suggestion to keep track of tested dogs. I hope you will all help in publicizing this survey.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
The direct link to the survey is http://www.mzjf.com/forms/form.cdform.php
I would much appreciate people cross posting so word can get out that information is being gathered as to the accuracy of the test in relation to the German Shepherd Dog. Thank you so much for the suggestion to keep track of tested dogs. I hope you will all help in publicizing this survey.
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by Abby Normal on 06 March 2012 - 09:03
Marjorie
I think this is the way to go to gather and collate as much data as possible. As I said above, the more testing that is done the more data will be available which will provide much more factual information as to what is happening. If you haven't added it, a section on the tests results of dogs that may subsequently be tested from clear parents (not just whether they go on to develop DM). You could encourage testing from clear dogs to confirm the results too.
People may not wish to, but some may agree to 'test the test'. A few years back in the UK, I think it was the Flatcoat retriever breeder club that did this following a gene test to eliminate a disease (sorry can't remember what it was), who tested litters and found that they were getting carriers from clears. The researchers then discovered a third 'wild' allele, which had until then remained hidden.
Let's keep it positive. Keep testing for DM and work with what we have whilst researching and collating what we see resulting from the current test. Meanwhile research is ongoing by a variety of organisations.
I think this is the way to go to gather and collate as much data as possible. As I said above, the more testing that is done the more data will be available which will provide much more factual information as to what is happening. If you haven't added it, a section on the tests results of dogs that may subsequently be tested from clear parents (not just whether they go on to develop DM). You could encourage testing from clear dogs to confirm the results too.
People may not wish to, but some may agree to 'test the test'. A few years back in the UK, I think it was the Flatcoat retriever breeder club that did this following a gene test to eliminate a disease (sorry can't remember what it was), who tested litters and found that they were getting carriers from clears. The researchers then discovered a third 'wild' allele, which had until then remained hidden.
Let's keep it positive. Keep testing for DM and work with what we have whilst researching and collating what we see resulting from the current test. Meanwhile research is ongoing by a variety of organisations.
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