Line breeding on Tom Vant leeffdaahof - Page 3

Imo, the dog should have ultimately received a reward, abite on a tug, perhaps, for his participation. End on a good note with the dog at least feeling good about himself, Especially since it was not training but a test. Agree with Duke....a ppd is not supposed to be a weapon released to persue a person running away....in that case, it is no longer protecting your person ( self).

If a dog with the potential of this is not able to become an affective deterrent as ppd, then you need a gun.

Apple on the video: :Could someone explain what the purpose of that "training" session was?

ValK:
looks like just checking out threshold and intensity of response to agitation.

not much to do anything with training.

Hans: Exactly!!! Thank you!

OK let me explain. I am not surprised that person Blackmalioins posted this video which is totally not related to the OP and it is posed as a form of personal attack. This video comes up from time to time as an example of my ineptness as the trainer. Same as this time, this video is invariably leveled against me by person ignorant of what is actually going on there
It is telling that people who train for work do understand what is going on there and then there are people from sport who do not get it quite as well.
That is why Duke and ValK got it right. It is not training. but it is testing. It is not my way to test, but it was a test by the black guy on video - trainer and decoy who call himself "Mega". Very nice guy and good trainer of working dogs. I am the white fat dude holding the leash.
The test was not training and it was not what I would prefer to do, but I did not see any harm the way it was done, so I went along. The point of the TEST was to see where the dog which did not have the previous training of this type is mentally, as far as his genetics go. That is why you do not see much support of the dog from me besides my basic presence.
I would like to say that if you want to spend time you can find several other videos testing other dogs from this group. All these dogs are brothers from one litter which I have acquired from JoanRo. They were excellent dogs and after my iconoclastic training they all ended up as LE dogs with street apprehentions and one as a private security dog. I kept one for myself. Their names were Tango, Mambo, Boogie, Chacha and so on. Named by dances. During the test, they were as far as my memory serves about 10 mo old so they were barely matured enough to display any defense of themselves. The test wes conducted to definitely pushed the dogs out of their comfort zone and that was the reason for the test. To see how far out of the comfort zone they can be pushed and still stay and how much stress per se the dog can withstand.
In the end of this I will say that I actually appreciate these negativistic posts VERY MUCH, because they help me to reaffirm that while some do not understand and some even make a fun of me and ridicule me - my training methods and testing actually create real dogs. Really these are not "My methods" per se they are methods and testing used by many trainers of working dogs for decades or longer. Ridicule from ignorance is none issue to me.
I hope this helps.

Joanro:"Imo, the dog should have ultimately received a reward, abite on a tug, perhaps, for his participation. End on a good note with the dog at least feeling good about himself, Especially since it was not training but a test. "

Prager Hans: In sport or sportism* scheme of training I agree with your statement 100%.( *FYI sportism is training where the dog is trained from toy to sleeve to man bite and it is in contrast to training where the dog is trained from the get-go to target human and not the fabric of the equipment)
My system of training is not necessarily always related to motivation and reward by toys or food. I, in my iconoclastic way, believe that real PP/LE dog during protection should not be motivated by toys or food. ( Toys are desirable during detection and S&R and so on) I want my dogs to work for me, with me and for the satisfaction of work done,.. work which is natural for them to do is rewarding when accomplished. When I train (protection) dogs I want to have no doohickey of any sort between me and my dog. Yes, I use a leash and collar but if I really would want to be purist I believe that even leash and collar are not always necessary. As a matter of fact, I do not want my PP/dogs to see any relationship between the protection and toy or food reward what so ever. I want them to perform protection because it was necessary and because I wanted it and the dogs want to please me and thus do it and winning of the fight itself is the most important "reward" dog can get together with my prise and pet with my hand - which i always "handy" ( pun intended:) ). That is why in the video I did not reward the dogs with the toy but they got plenty of praising and petting which made them feel 'big' and 'great'. T and that was the ultimate reward.

Prager:. That is why in the video I did not reward the dogs with the toy but they got plenty of praising and petting which made them feel 'big' and 'great'. T and that was the ultimate reward.

 

Exactly! And that is the way it should be. It's good to know how those dogs turned out. And this is a test, only, of a dog that is related to those dogs of your's (same sire, littermate sister mother. of your dog)...zero foundation work, only instinct to act with:

This dog had never been jumped into a truck bed before this test...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/grjrxdt8gcsixcu/otto-%20truck%20bitesuit%2C%20091014.mov?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ush1lyedmzwd0tt/otto-truck%20second%20bite%2009%2010%2014.mov?dl=0

So here is the breeding I am looking at. I had inquired about a year ago and they said they would do the breeding. Had some health issues that stopped me from doing it when she came into heat but considering it again.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.result?father=539943&mother=2472890

I had a dog for a short while who was a 3x3 paska linebreeding. She was not well balanced in the head in my opinion. Sent her to a top trainer in the area who trains many professional athletes dogs as service and protection so they can travel with them. Said she was to hot to do anything where she would be around people. Shipped her off to a guy who wanted her out of state. I assume she is doing well for him but he is in a different situation than I am.

Just would prefer not to breed something quite so hot, more well balanced in the head but solid nerves and a dog who will rip someone's arm off if needed

My female I want to breed is close to that. Would just like to build on it a little add in a little more aggression on the protection side. Am going to keep the best male from the litter.

IMO Tom Vant leeffdaahof will accentuate whatever drives the other dogs are having as a dominant trade.

I dont see Hank as a typical Tom dog, but in general you got a strong pedigree ther, need to see what the mother of pups is like, gauner is good powerfull dog

Prager,
You talk about "real" dogs vs. sport dogs. This subject has been beat to death in the dog world and really has little meaning. You say you want the dogs to work for you and the satisfaction of the work done and you want your dogs to please you. To me, that is all anthropomorphizing. The dog you showed being tested was protecting himself, not you. Why not start out with the "tester" coming forward toward you and slapping you and see what the dog does? He was defensive which simply put, is fear. Where is the satisfaction of a dog feeling fearful and having to defend himself? Eventually, dogs like this can be conditioned to "protect" you, but in reality are protecting themselves. They certainly can be successful in different venues, but their motivation to bite is originally out of fear. I am not saying they are fear biters, but they are not what I consider the most confident type of dog. Aren't all of Jinopo's breeding stock sport titled? So are they real dogs or sport dogs?