Ethical or not German Shepherd Breeder??? - Page 3

Yes the Mittlewest situation is a great example of an ethical breeder standing up against an unethical one, but look what it took to do it. I was planning on buying  a dog from mittlewest, dogs sure look good and they have a spiffy website but I did a google search and found one complaint on ripoff report.com and then talked to some people at a local shutzhund club and they told me to avoid Julie Martinez. I did the same with the breeder that sold me the puppy with crytorchidism, but all was good. Just shows how hard it is to separate the ethical breeders form those that aren't. Just one report on ripoff though made me take another look and after further research in addition to visiting Mittlewest I moved on, unfortunately I moved on to someone that was just as bad. Sure wish those that had a bad experience with my breeder would have posted on ripoff.Ripoff is a good place for a consumers to find a place to complain, can be unfair also, but breeders do have a chance to respond. Check out the 100's of complaint on that website about bad breeders. I would like to know what others think of ripoff and if anyone has had an unfair complain filed against them. I can see how competitors could use the site to slam people unfairly.My breeder now has a complaint filed on him, but not responded. Dave

I would say that if the breeder would not take the pup back from the orignial owner, it should have given you a clue as to the eithics of that breeder.  As stated above, it is easy to check the testicles.  First thing I looked at when I bought my male.  They were fine, my issue was one that came up 2 years later, EPI.  I bought the dog as a pet quality male, only reason for him was to be a pet and home protection as my husband works nights. 

One must be cautious and do the homework.  Visit the facility as you had done.  Above all, be honest with what you want from a dog.  If it is just companionship and love, look at adoption.  A breeder, especially show lines, will not sacrifice a dog he or she knows to be a good show dog to the pet market.  Unfortunatly, they are reserved for the closet companions and freinds in the show world.    A cryptorchid pup happens once in a while, human babies too.   (Should parents of a cryptorchid child never have any more children?  I guess they would not be selling them though, so it is an unfair comparison.)   These pups belong in the pet market and yes, there should be caution with breeding the parents a second time.   There should also be full disclosure on the issue from the breeder as to the condition.

What is ethical anyhow, a breeder that is brutally honest about the pups and knows that in each litter there will be faults or one that NEVER EVER produces a pup with a fault.  The later is not a possibility.  To me its the act of making those faults "go away" by lying or other means. 

Its hard to be "perfect" in this world and cover all the ins and outs with a new buyer.  I honestly think there is no way we can call any breeder truely ethical with the standards many buyers present.  One ding dent or ommision on a pup is cause for red flags in so many minds.  One thing we must remember is that these are living beings, not cars that are mass produced.  There will be genetic variation, mutations and recessive genes that pop up.  For, example, my male was a total outcross, I really felt I was safe from a recessive negative issue.  His birth in my mind does not make his breeder unethical, there was no way to tell if any pup would develope the disease.  Continuing to breed the female without determing if future studs carry the gene however, would be unethical.

It is true that all of the Mittelwest dogs could be entered as co-owned.
To me that would require a lot of paperwork shuffling and it is not in the interest of fair play.
It is my understanding that a person ruled to be "not in good standing" is also in a quasi-probationary period. During this time that person's actions will be closely monitored. If, at the end of the probationary period it is deemed the person was not acting in accordance with the ethics of the WDA, they could be banned from WDA membership.
I know that if I was the person that this happened to I would be doing a lot of soul searching and re-evaluating myself, and those around me, to see how I could learn from my mistakes and improve every part of myself and my kennel.
Choosing to enter all of those dogs as co-owned, in my opinion, is continuing down the road that got Mittelwest in to the trouble they are presently in.

I would also like to add what a little worm Tim Burke, the USA Breed Warden, is for trying to sweep all of this under the rug when he was presented with it.
The USA Breed Warden is in that position to protect the breed, not, cower to big name kennels because his precious Sieger Show might have less entries! I hope that people remember this when voting takes place again for his position.

 There is no line in GSDs that does not occasionally produce mono or crypto orchids. I suspect that is probably true for all or most dog breeds since the known incidence is about 6%. Of all the things we have to balance  and select for or against, cryptoorchidism is a very "benign" fault that has a low risk of occurring AND  is readily observable by the buyer. Most breeders sell such animals at a reduced pet price to offset the increased cost of neutering. Neutered the dog can live a long healthy life and engage in any sport suitable for GSD as well as being the great pet/companion he was sold as. No need for the dog to be returned. No need for this certifying authority you seem so bent on (for a "free" country I as an American do not get the fascination and reliance too many Am put in "regulation" - it just creates bureacracies and does not accomplish jack s__t) PS this is a living breathing organism with all its complexities -not a toaster.

Now to your particular situation. First a couple of questions.
1. When you originally contacted the breeder did you state that you wanted a pet or a breeding quality dog? Be honest now! Since you initially did not tell us  "You're also right in saying that I'm not experienced at breeding and shouldn't do it. I had planned to breed him once with a family that has a female from a well know kennel but they are no more experienced than I am." I suspect that you might have "forgotten" to mention this aim to the breeder because if he's a good breeder he would have read you the riot act about how that is not the way to go about it.
2. Before you handed over the money for the dog why did YOU not check for testicles?
3. Do you have anything in writing (email, letter, contract) from the breeder confirming your allegation that he agreed to transfer the guarantee?

So let me see if I got this right.
a.You contacted a breeder and was about to buy a dog from him for $1500.
b.However on Kijij ( why one would even look there never mind buy from there is another thing that is beyond my ken. Not a meeting place for quality dogs) you spot a dog from this same breeder who is being sold in your locality thus saving you the Pain In the bAss chore of actually going to meet and check out the breeder and his dogs. Oh and Happy Days its cheaper than buying direct from the breeder so you can save $500!
c.But wait lets have our cake and eat it to. Why not call the breeder ( who you have not paid a dime to) and try to get him to agree to "transfer" the guarantee. Now you say he agreed. Another thing in life I find very strange - why would he - there is nothing in that for him other than insuring his puppy's safety to come home again - but wait when you have already been told by the seller that he had refused to honor that guarantee by taking the puppy back! Hmm!

So another couple of questions for you.
1. Did you ask the puppy owner/seller what they had paid for the puppy?
2. Did you ask if they bought a pet or a breeding quality animal?
3. Once you found out did you ask them if they knew about the cyrptorchism?
4. Since they only had the puppy 5 days, did you think it was strange that they were willing to take a $500 "loss" on the purchase of the puppy and ask them why?
5. Have you asked them if they were sold the puppy at a reduced price because of the defect? Did you ask to look at any paperwork they had from the breeder? Did you ask why they were selling the dog?
6. Did it strike you strange at all that the breeder offered to take back the puppy from you but supposedly would not from the original buyers? Does that sound like consistent behavior?
7. When told by the sellers that the breeder would not take the dog back / would not honor his guarantee did any little bells go off in your head that this might not be the breeder of your dreams? Never mind about the guarantee how about the poor pup left out in the cold? Did that not concern you and raise any question marks? Did it not concern you that apparantly the breeder was perfectly happy for the owners to sell a pup that they had for only 5 days to someone he had no clue about?

So back to seeing if I got this right.
d. You buy the discount dog apparently w/o checking the testicles and or making the sale contigent on a vet exam. 
e. The fault is discovered and you are outraged ( and probably felt like a fool who had been taken). but are you outraged at the person who sold you the dog?  - NO.
f.  All thru your thread you refer to yourself as a buyer from this breeder. ex "I did the same with the breeder that sold me the puppy with crytorchidism, ... " N.B.  THIS BREEDER DID NOT SELL YOU A PUPPY. YOU HAVE NOT PAID HIM A DIME. You bought a puppy out of the electronic version of the daily newspaper. There may not even be any real evidence that this puppy truly came from the breeder you refer to.  Unless you have a written document from him there is absolutely no contractual relationship between you and him. Legally your recourse lies with the person you bought the puppy from.
g. So you now demand from this person that you have not paid a dime to and have no legal relationship with that he give you a free puppy worth $1500 (a value greater than you paid the third party you actually got the dog from so you come away with an instant $500 profit)
h. He won't bite so still being angry at your own stupidity you decide to show him what's for by doing your best to ruin his reputation. Oh but let's be coy and not actually name him thinking you can't be sued for libel but let's put in very descriptive details of his location and website so any savy web user can easily id him.

Did I get it right so far?

so finally
i. You come to this board and pull out the latest American fad- victimology. I am a victim of  Fill in the blank ( here the "bad" "unethical" breeder)

But lets talk about your ethics for the moment.
If you truly wanted  a relationship with the breeder why did you not buy from him?
If you had talked to the breeder about wanting a breeding quality dog vs a pet there would have been discussion about wh/ pup in the litter was suited for that task.  What made you think he could be just swapped out with a different littermate who may or may not have been asssessed for that same potentiality?
Why do you choose not to take responsibility for your decisions and the consequences that flowed from them?
Why do you feel you had no responsibility to do any due diligence surrounding this puppy and the people you bought him from? N.B> the people who sold you the dog NOT the breeder.
Why do you feel you are entitled to something free from someone you have never dealt with?
Why do you feel you are entitled to a dog that is worth more than you paid and from someone you never paid any money to?
Why were you not concerned about this puppy changing hands so fast in such a short time and w/o the breeder being involved?
Why did you not check the testicles before you purchased the puppy and how is your failure to do so anyone else's fault?

I could go on but I think you get the picture. I would truly love to know the answers to all the questions I posed.

Barring some very sensible answers however, this is the assessment I would make. Like so many unfortunately today, you saw the prices GSD pups sometimes get sold for and began to get dollar signs in the eyes once your friends got a bitch - all we need is a male. And then you got greedy. You thought you could get what you wanted for less money. So now you are furious not only because you know you got greedy and stupid but your grand plans to make pots of money have gone astray.

PS to Jackie H, I disagree with you that Dave was "taken" by this breeder.  He had NO relationship w/ the breeder. He may or may not have been taken by the sellers but we lack sufficient info to determine that. But he certainly was NOT taken by this breeder.

VKFGSD,
that is a very interesting scenario!
When I read the first post of the person, I just shook my head at the situation: Somebody bought a male puppy for showing and breeding purposes and failed to do the most fundamental thing: To ensure that both testicles are descended.
I too would be very much interested what response  the original poster will come up with!

I'm the poor victimized american who has" victomology". What being american has to do with anything I'm not sure, there are 300 million of us and I'm sure we don't all have the same neurosis's. I admit we certainly have an abundant supply of wackos. As me being a player in this plot and have some responsibility, I absolutely agree, I was foolish as many victims are. But I also have a responsibility to warn others of this unethical breeder. Haven't done this on this board but after my original post I feel stronger than ever that this business is full of unethical breeders and I still don't understand why the good breeders don't separate themselves from the bad ones. Anyway some more details:

I originally called the breeder and had planned to buy a dog from him, but then 2 days later saw this puppy on Kijiji, same litter as I wanted. In addition this seller would cross into the states, my passport had expired and I can't get into Canada until renewed, probably months. The original buyers were as stupid as me, even more so, because they thought they could raise a German Shepherd in a 1 bedroom apartment and put him in a cage while they were at work. The barking drove the neighbors nuts. I called breeder again and he said he would transfer guarantee and I trusted his word and would not have bought  the animal if he had not given the OK.  Also I told him I wanted to breed him once, just once,  in 2 years once we had OFA and other tests done, he had no problem with this.I never, I repeat never, planned on showing him or making money on him, but even if I did so what. So I guess a few of you think it's ethical:

1. Not to keep your word and honor the guarantee as stated
2. Because someone is stupid I guess it's OK to take take advantage and sell a dog to that stupid person with a genetic defect
3. Not replace the dog but offer to sell another one and take original dog, for a net profit of $3200
4. Selling a dog knowingly that has a genetic defect, without informing original buyer, for full price
5. Showing no concern for the puppy at all and stating that he didn't need an operation, when without the surgery the dog would likely get a highly aggressive form of cancer
6. Keep breeding a line of dogs that had showed this defect twice before, remember he would't repalce the dog because he felt animal could live a good life without surgery because he said that he had 2 other dogs from this line that had the same problem and are living perfectly normal lives.

Ok, Deor! You stated your opinion, can you now answer the above questions, please?
I really do want to understand your situation and why the breeder is unethical and responsible for your misshap? VKFGSD is correct, legally the breeder is not. So, what do you have in writing to back that up?
There are a lot of things that do not add up in this story, not only from your side.
I consider myself an ethical breeder, so I tell you what I would have done:
1) I do not sell a male with undescended testicle(s) to anybody without disclosing this fact and I sell these puppies on limited registration and very discounted (about 40 to 50% off the original price).
2) I would never sell somebody a GSD puppy who lives in a one-bedroom apartment. Of course, if they do notdisclose this fact, where is nothing a breeder can do.
3) My contract is not transferrable to a third party. I have this clause in my contract that all guarantees are void if sold or given away. Which breeder in his right mind would do such a thing? Who knows what kind of situation the puppy was exposed to while in the seller's care?
4) Why are you not taking this up with the people you bought the puppy from?
5) I would love to hear the breeder's side of the story as well, before condemning anybody. There are always two sides of the story! And that would only be fair!
By the way, renewing a passport for our daughter to fly to Germany just took us 10 days when you pay the expedited service, so not a valid excuse!