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by Red Sable on 25 May 2010 - 21:05
I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on Mark. Alot of people when buying a pup from ScH3 parents, expect a pup with some defense, I know I would have originally.
Now I realize, alot of Sch3 dogs are prey monsters, have very little defense drive. Not what I want either. I buy from breeders who breed for the whole GSD.
I'd be disappointed too. Having had a well balanced GSD, that would protect without training, I know they are out there. I've also seen GSD's (showline) that very much have the temperament of a Golden Retriever. Not my cup of tea. Before everyone jumps on me, my dog, that I was referring to was a showline, so obviously, they are not all Goldens in GSD clothing.
Both of my dogs bark, (thankfully), without training. You shouldn't have to train a GSD to have what is supposed to come naturally!
Mark feels disappointed, and rightfully so, IMHO.
Now I realize, alot of Sch3 dogs are prey monsters, have very little defense drive. Not what I want either. I buy from breeders who breed for the whole GSD.
I'd be disappointed too. Having had a well balanced GSD, that would protect without training, I know they are out there. I've also seen GSD's (showline) that very much have the temperament of a Golden Retriever. Not my cup of tea. Before everyone jumps on me, my dog, that I was referring to was a showline, so obviously, they are not all Goldens in GSD clothing.
Both of my dogs bark, (thankfully), without training. You shouldn't have to train a GSD to have what is supposed to come naturally!
Mark feels disappointed, and rightfully so, IMHO.
by YogieBear on 25 May 2010 - 22:05
The originator of this thread hasnt posted again - I guess cause his brutal attack on the schutzhund world brought about a knife in the stomach. It was deserved....... to make such a comment about his own dogs - and compare to the parents is just outright stupidity. But I do have a question for GSDfan.... in your videos the black dog first works on the sleeve for schutzhund and on the 2nd video works on PP - if the helper in the schutzhund work dropped the sleeve - what would the dog do? The 2nd video he throws it toward the dog when the dog is coming toward him and he goes for the man - how does the dog change from schutzhund to PP....would if the man dropped the sleeve when working in the "schutzhund" mode - go to the sleeve that was dropped or would he go for the man like in the pp?
Yogie Bear
Yogie Bear
by GSDfan on 26 May 2010 - 05:05
Red sable...it is not wrong to ask a question and share what he expected and doesn't feel he has. It is the way he downright slimed SchH and ignorantly critisized every dog with a SchH title with zero knowledge.
I would have no problems politely explaining everything I said and try to help him understand more than he knows...but he comes off as an opinionated know-it-all when his is a know-nothing! He deserves to be "jumped on"!!
Yogiebear...she has a bit of natural civility and has been trained to "target the man". But will not re-engage without a command, or aggitation from the decoy. when she is holding the sleeve in her mouth while I cradle her she likes to keep her eye on him.
There is a technique that is commonly used by the helper in SchH if a dog skips a blind. It is only done with equipment oriented dogs (Some handlers don't care and just do SchH). The helper will drop the sleeve and leave the blind to take away the reason the dog came to the blind...the dog quickly learns if he/she skips the blind against the handlers command he/she doesn't get what he wants. The helpers I work with either know or i tell them not to drop the sleeve.
I have never tried this because the way she is trained to target the man. I wouldn't want to put the helper in that position.
When she is prey guarding (in SchH and PSA), she puts her front paws on the sleeve and barks at the helper/decoy. She enjoys this and sometimes after her SchH "lap" will take the sleeve back to the helper and drop it infront of them and stare at him. In a way "inviting" the helper to prey guard with her...inciting him to go another round. I try to platz her or grab the leash...the SchH helper knows not to move or if I'm working her on a new helper I tell them not to move if she does this (I try to head her off and have her bring it to me). I have never let it happen but knowing her if I am not holding the leash and the helper tries to take it, she will engage him.
At the end of this video you can see what she does...I don't have a video of her doing this in SchH but it is the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRW3n0tjM8Q
In SchH if given the opportunity or a command she will go for the man not the sleeve if I make or let it happen. It is not necessary in schH to do anything more than a little prey guarding every now and then...so that is the extent of what we do on the SchH field. She is conditioned in a way (when doing SchH) by not showing her much civil aggitation.... so she is not on guard for a second bite after a slip because I have never done that with her with a SchH sleeve nor given her the bite command after a SchH sleeve slip.
In PSA, I will not let the decoy slip anything to her unless i am holding the line or he has another way to catch her (hidden sleeve)
Hope this answers your question
I would have no problems politely explaining everything I said and try to help him understand more than he knows...but he comes off as an opinionated know-it-all when his is a know-nothing! He deserves to be "jumped on"!!
Yogiebear...she has a bit of natural civility and has been trained to "target the man". But will not re-engage without a command, or aggitation from the decoy. when she is holding the sleeve in her mouth while I cradle her she likes to keep her eye on him.
There is a technique that is commonly used by the helper in SchH if a dog skips a blind. It is only done with equipment oriented dogs (Some handlers don't care and just do SchH). The helper will drop the sleeve and leave the blind to take away the reason the dog came to the blind...the dog quickly learns if he/she skips the blind against the handlers command he/she doesn't get what he wants. The helpers I work with either know or i tell them not to drop the sleeve.
I have never tried this because the way she is trained to target the man. I wouldn't want to put the helper in that position.
When she is prey guarding (in SchH and PSA), she puts her front paws on the sleeve and barks at the helper/decoy. She enjoys this and sometimes after her SchH "lap" will take the sleeve back to the helper and drop it infront of them and stare at him. In a way "inviting" the helper to prey guard with her...inciting him to go another round. I try to platz her or grab the leash...the SchH helper knows not to move or if I'm working her on a new helper I tell them not to move if she does this (I try to head her off and have her bring it to me). I have never let it happen but knowing her if I am not holding the leash and the helper tries to take it, she will engage him.
At the end of this video you can see what she does...I don't have a video of her doing this in SchH but it is the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRW3n0tjM8Q
In SchH if given the opportunity or a command she will go for the man not the sleeve if I make or let it happen. It is not necessary in schH to do anything more than a little prey guarding every now and then...so that is the extent of what we do on the SchH field. She is conditioned in a way (when doing SchH) by not showing her much civil aggitation.... so she is not on guard for a second bite after a slip because I have never done that with her with a SchH sleeve nor given her the bite command after a SchH sleeve slip.
In PSA, I will not let the decoy slip anything to her unless i am holding the line or he has another way to catch her (hidden sleeve)
Hope this answers your question
by steve1 on 26 May 2010 - 07:05
The Top and bottom of it is this person was not happy with his Dogs because they do not Bark at people walking by his property, I would not beat all happy if my dogs kept barking at every Tom Dick and Harry who just walked by during there normal daily living
HOWEVER should anyone walk inside my Property then i would expect the Dogs to Bark and warn me and they certainly do
But i do not want dogs barking everytime a person walks by the house that is not Guarding me or the Property that is a sign of being unsecure and some weak nerves. That i do not want in my Dogs at any price the Guy is not doing his Dogs Justice, and he knows sweet Fairy Ann about the SchH Sport or Dogs
Steve1
HOWEVER should anyone walk inside my Property then i would expect the Dogs to Bark and warn me and they certainly do
But i do not want dogs barking everytime a person walks by the house that is not Guarding me or the Property that is a sign of being unsecure and some weak nerves. That i do not want in my Dogs at any price the Guy is not doing his Dogs Justice, and he knows sweet Fairy Ann about the SchH Sport or Dogs
Steve1
by Mrk on 26 May 2010 - 08:05
i apologize to all for the way i originally posted. im sure you will feel the same way if you spend thousands of dollars on a well bred pup (one breeder of the pup even claim they will be protective when grown) and the least you expect of him/her is to alarm you when something isn't right when they are full grown. i even had a friend (my dogs never seen him before) try to climb my fence at night and making a lot of noise and the dogs could care less.
let me give you 2 example.
example 1:
A) $5000 pup with fancy pedigree + training = good protection dogs.
B) $500 pup / or a dog adopted from the shelter + training = good protection dog.
what i learn from all this is option "B" is a waaayyy better deal. high price pups from Sch3 /VA are just eye candy and pretty to look at on paper but are no more intelligent or protective of its owners property/family than a mutt you find off the street or one in the classified ad of the newspaper for sale.
example 2:
when i buy a greyhound from a winning racing family and background, i expect him to run pretty fast when grown. i should not see my neighbors poodle out running him. i should not hear everyone telling me that for my greyhound to run faster than the poodle, he should be condition and train for it by professional.
P.S.
if my kids didnt love these 2 dogs so much, i would give them away free + pay for shipping. all they are to me is leachers costing me money to house/feed them while in return will never lift a paw to help my family in any dangers.
let me give you 2 example.
example 1:
A) $5000 pup with fancy pedigree + training = good protection dogs.
B) $500 pup / or a dog adopted from the shelter + training = good protection dog.
what i learn from all this is option "B" is a waaayyy better deal. high price pups from Sch3 /VA are just eye candy and pretty to look at on paper but are no more intelligent or protective of its owners property/family than a mutt you find off the street or one in the classified ad of the newspaper for sale.
example 2:
when i buy a greyhound from a winning racing family and background, i expect him to run pretty fast when grown. i should not see my neighbors poodle out running him. i should not hear everyone telling me that for my greyhound to run faster than the poodle, he should be condition and train for it by professional.
P.S.
if my kids didnt love these 2 dogs so much, i would give them away free + pay for shipping. all they are to me is leachers costing me money to house/feed them while in return will never lift a paw to help my family in any dangers.
by Mrk on 26 May 2010 - 09:05
GSDfan,
your dog seem is pretty awesome in PP. but all i see there is someone guiding and giving the dog instructions. what happens when there are no one to guide your dog? do he have the instinct to protect your property when you are not home or there to give command?
your dog seem is pretty awesome in PP. but all i see there is someone guiding and giving the dog instructions. what happens when there are no one to guide your dog? do he have the instinct to protect your property when you are not home or there to give command?
by Penny on 26 May 2010 - 11:05
Like kids in an unhappy marriage......... dont keep it together for that reason.
These dogs deserve a whole famly that want them, and love them., not to live waiting for kids to come home who really want them. They are not Baribe Dolls or the like, that are kids enjoyment tools.... These types of stories disgust me. There must be so many dogs living like this. Dogs are feeling, living, loving creatures, not items to be used and disposed of just because they dont meet up to your expectations. Get them a good home, and leave them to a happy life, and let your kids get over it, you obviously love them, they live up to your expections perhaps, so you will admire them. Mo.
These dogs deserve a whole famly that want them, and love them., not to live waiting for kids to come home who really want them. They are not Baribe Dolls or the like, that are kids enjoyment tools.... These types of stories disgust me. There must be so many dogs living like this. Dogs are feeling, living, loving creatures, not items to be used and disposed of just because they dont meet up to your expectations. Get them a good home, and leave them to a happy life, and let your kids get over it, you obviously love them, they live up to your expections perhaps, so you will admire them. Mo.
by GSDfan on 26 May 2010 - 12:05
You obviously haven't learned a thing...the answer to your question about my dog is yes.
If you want a dog to bark AND protect you....TRAIN THE DOGS you have!!
If you want a dog to bark, that will piss himself if actually challenged...then go ahead get a fearful nervebag from the shelter!!
PS. I feel sorry for your dogs!
If you want a dog to bark AND protect you....TRAIN THE DOGS you have!!
If you want a dog to bark, that will piss himself if actually challenged...then go ahead get a fearful nervebag from the shelter!!
PS. I feel sorry for your dogs!
by Bu Inu on 26 May 2010 - 12:05
Mrk,
In your "Example 1" you state "+ training" in both examples A and B. You never mention that YOU have TRAINED your GSD's at all. If all you wanted was a dog to make noise and be an alarm system, you could have picked a dog at the local rescue or humane society and hoped for the best since it appears you have no intention or ambition to train and do not understand anything at all about how training a dog works or what is accomplished.
No one in SchH, PP, PSA, PD K-9, etc., simply buys a dog from whatever bloodlines and have an "out of the box" protection/service dog without TRAINING.
Virtually all of your better breeders that are breeding proven dogs do some form of temperament testing and working potential testing. The pups that rate the highest go to working homes or service dog trainers/handlers/owners. The lower scoring pups go to non-working homes. That is not to say that the lower ranked pups don't have the abilities or natural drives, it just means that they wold take more TRAINING to achieve the best results for work or service.
Ufortunately, if someone led you astray by convincing you to buy pups from a breeding where both parents were titled and that you would have to do nothing at all, you were taken and scammed. Suck it up and move on. You came to a forum here where a good number of its members train in some venue or train and handle working dogs for a living. As you can see from the replies here that few people if any are going to side with your distorted perceptions and lack of knowledge on the subject, with the exception of other people that share your lack ambition to train or the shortcomings of their actual education, understanding, or application of the subject matter.
Bottom line: If you want a home security barking dog, get anything from a Chihuahua to a Great Dane and good luck.
If you want a confident protection dog where his drives are balanced and his abilities sharp,...TRAIN!!
In your "Example 1" you state "+ training" in both examples A and B. You never mention that YOU have TRAINED your GSD's at all. If all you wanted was a dog to make noise and be an alarm system, you could have picked a dog at the local rescue or humane society and hoped for the best since it appears you have no intention or ambition to train and do not understand anything at all about how training a dog works or what is accomplished.
No one in SchH, PP, PSA, PD K-9, etc., simply buys a dog from whatever bloodlines and have an "out of the box" protection/service dog without TRAINING.
Virtually all of your better breeders that are breeding proven dogs do some form of temperament testing and working potential testing. The pups that rate the highest go to working homes or service dog trainers/handlers/owners. The lower scoring pups go to non-working homes. That is not to say that the lower ranked pups don't have the abilities or natural drives, it just means that they wold take more TRAINING to achieve the best results for work or service.
Ufortunately, if someone led you astray by convincing you to buy pups from a breeding where both parents were titled and that you would have to do nothing at all, you were taken and scammed. Suck it up and move on. You came to a forum here where a good number of its members train in some venue or train and handle working dogs for a living. As you can see from the replies here that few people if any are going to side with your distorted perceptions and lack of knowledge on the subject, with the exception of other people that share your lack ambition to train or the shortcomings of their actual education, understanding, or application of the subject matter.
Bottom line: If you want a home security barking dog, get anything from a Chihuahua to a Great Dane and good luck.
If you want a confident protection dog where his drives are balanced and his abilities sharp,...TRAIN!!
by charlie319 on 26 May 2010 - 12:05
MRK:
I think that GSDfan has been very clear on what you should consider doing. The reason folks buy dogs from pedigrees that can work (SchH-3, IPO, etc) is because it reduces the uncertainty that they may be buying a dog that won't perform. There is no absolute certainty that a "winner" will produce winners. For example; how many stakes winners did Secretariat (probably the greatest TB horse in recent history) produce?
You can go to the pound, a rescue, or any other venue and get a low cost dog or pup. However, you may not know what its behavioral tendencies are likely to be. Why did you spend a fortune on a couple of GSD's? Because the breed has a behavioral pattern and characteristics that you sought. Otherwise, you might have bought a labradoodle.
Your dogs have the basic makeup for the job. It is up to you to help them achieve their potential. They are not like a microwaveable dinner. It will take time and effort.
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