Line breeding on Tom Vant leeffdaahof - Page 2

Could someone explain what the purpose of that "training" session was?

looks like just  checking out threshold and intensity of response to agitation.

not much to do anything with training.

I personally would work that dog a little different, but I understand, also I know the sporty people mostly dont understand any training that is not sport/prey/points based, 

I wrote on a facebook topic this week, that it is troubeling that many of todays trainers cannot train a dog that doesnot have crazy food and balldrive, as that is as far as the toolbox goes nowadays

@prager, I agree on the stupid post remark LOL

 

I don't think it has anything to do with sporty/prey/points, etc. The dog was stressed from the very beginning, looking down and sniffing the ground showing avoidance. He was overly defensive and not confident, backing up just because someone was doing some hand movements. It is not different than teaching a boxer to box or an MMA fighter to fight. They start out on equipment to learn the fundamentals of how to use their weapons, which in the case on dogs is teeth and biting. You don't just throw a young, inexperienced kid into a fight and expect him to become a competent and confident fighter. After the dog has acquired some biting skills and maturity, a good decoy knows how to add pressure to a dog and teaches the dog how to turn the pressure off. Over time, the pressure and expectation are raised. The dog is learning how to fight. Now if you have a young dog with super genetics and confidence and very forward, confident aggression, the approach on the video might be fine, but that is not what I saw in that dog.

so basically apple, you are saying the same as me, you understand, but would do it differently, but there is tons of people who dont understand at all

I believe the foundation for bite work for a dog that is going to do sport should not be that different than from a dog that is a candidate for police apprehension. Both should start in prey and the dog should have good prey drive. Both should have good nerves. Some subtle differences would be to wait until, a police dog candidate is about 5-6 months old vs. 8 weeks. A police dog should be less equipment oriented, so winning the prey should be phased out. And a police dog candidate should be built up to a higher level of fight over time and learn that the helper is someone who can hurt him so the dog doesn't see it as a game. More pressure would be added than to a sport dog and the dog would learn how to, turn off the increased pressure building confident and the sense that he can defeat a person.  That is not needed in sport and would actually contribute to lower scores most likely. There are dogs whose primary drive is defense and have low prey drive, but good nerves, that can be trained to do police work, but IMO, most dogs that are mostly defensive with low prey have nerve issues. The dog on the video looked sharp/shy to me.

well apple, there you go, also you miss the point of what is going on in that video, the dog in the video is not an ideal sportdog, possibly not LE material, but IMO ideal candidate for personal or family protection, this requires another type of dog than previous two "jobs"

A PP dog is a defence mainly dog, will not be send after running away criminal, as its purpose is to make the criminal go away, not catch and arrest.

your statement that most defensive dogs with low prey have nerve issues is totally incorrect, you are talking fearbiters, which is something else

I can fairly state that tons of high preydrive dogs have weak nerves, but wont show that when "in drive " 

the dog in the video, like I said, I would do it a tad different, but that dog has potential for PP, but like I said before, lots of people wont understand, and that is ok

 

must add to that that defensive dog with weak nerves, when cornered WILL bite you, where a prey dog with weak nerves when cornered will only piss itself

Sticking to working line GSDs, you think percentage wise, the majority of GSDs with defense as their primary drive have good nerves? I don't disagree that their are plenty of high prey dogs with nerves issues. I think nerve issues along with health problems are the two biggest problems in the breed. I would say there is a good chance that defensive and high prey dogs with weak nerves would try flight first. If the defensive dog with weak nerves is cornered into biting, a strong adversary would run the dog or shut him down. Regarding dogs with a low threshold for defense being good PP dogs, many will be a liability because they perceive a threat when there isn't one and can't be around other people unless on leash. They can look impressive to some at the end of a leash, but drop the leash and see what happens. The best dogs, IMO, are balanced in prey and defense, with high drives in both areas and very good nerves. If you live in such a dangerous area that you need a PP dog, you should have a gun.

in old czech and DDR lines, yes, because that was what they were bred for to begin with,

and with defensive dogs, you need training and responsible ownership, Original GSd where no pets and not meant for everybody as a toy,, 

dou you thing a trained prey/sport dog will function as PP

definately we can agree on the fact that balanced dogs are ideal, but dog like in video can be a lifesaver for sure

apple, to see true potential of pup/youngster, you should perform test before considering to go for bite work.
and earlier you will done this, more assured result will be. other way it could be just waste of time, albeit for sport application it's not really too important.
hard to say anything certainly about dog itself. the test in video was performed incorrectly.