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by Silbersee on 21 July 2009 - 14:07
SSDD...
Who in his right mind would buy a male puppy for future breeding (which is a long shot anyway) without personally checking that testicles have descended at the time of purchase? It is a bunch of BS to say that they will come down a bit later. They are either there, or not. We never ever sell a male puppy without descended testicles, unless it is clearly mentioned and on limited registration. This puppy is heavily discounted as a pet purchase, since the new owner will pay a lot more to have it neutered. If a testicle would still come down (and I have never ever experienced that), the new owner got lucky. But the limited registration would only be lifted by us if we have proof in person or by a licensed vet that the testicle indeed did descend. Of course, we would ask for the difference in price as well. This has nothing to do with other guarantees - like hips and elbows which we give in writing.
Who in his right mind would buy a male puppy for future breeding (which is a long shot anyway) without personally checking that testicles have descended at the time of purchase? It is a bunch of BS to say that they will come down a bit later. They are either there, or not. We never ever sell a male puppy without descended testicles, unless it is clearly mentioned and on limited registration. This puppy is heavily discounted as a pet purchase, since the new owner will pay a lot more to have it neutered. If a testicle would still come down (and I have never ever experienced that), the new owner got lucky. But the limited registration would only be lifted by us if we have proof in person or by a licensed vet that the testicle indeed did descend. Of course, we would ask for the difference in price as well. This has nothing to do with other guarantees - like hips and elbows which we give in writing.
by Kalibeck on 21 July 2009 - 14:07
Yes, it is a crap shoot. Even with a dog that has had 7+ generations of good hips behind him, & siblings with good hips, a bad one can, & did, crop up. It's a shame that the breeder won't 'make it right' for you, but realistically, what could they do besides refund some of the purchase price, & as the dog was not purchased from the breeder, that becomes an issue. I feel for you. I personally have only had experience with good breeders who stand behind their dogs & their progeny, I can only imagine how awful you must feel. Based on how badly I feel about my boy, it must be pretty bad. But I've had him now for 2+ years, I can't look at his happy eyes & not want him anymore. Poor kid, he doesn't know what he's about to lose! LOL! And I have had 1 litter, I won't be having any more litters until I learn a lot more, but that 1 litter taught me a lot! (More about people than about dogs...funny thing!) So I can't be considered a breeder. Maybe some day. But this economy has me thinking of neutering all my dogs & giving up. I don't know.....sometimes it seems like only the unethical survive....sadly. jackie harris
by Ryanhaus on 21 July 2009 - 14:07
We do not guarantee testicles, and sell all pups on limited reg. but if the pup in the future turns out to be
free of disqualifying defects, and excellent temperament then I reverse the limited to full.
Who can predect a small undeveloped puppy is going to turn out to be a great stud, maybe he has both testicles and a low sperm count, what then?
Years back when I was breeding GSD's once in a while I would get a puppy with one or more missing testicles, and if that happened then I would choose to use a different stud, I wouldn't repeat that breeding, it only makes sense.
You have to weed these things out of your breed program...
As for the pup living a healthy normal life, yes, but like Uber said, have them removed or they will lead to cancer.
We had a Labrador Retriever years back that had 1 testicle till he was 6 months, then the other one dropped, that was the longest time I have ever seen it take, I would have to say they should be there at least by 10 weeks of age.
free of disqualifying defects, and excellent temperament then I reverse the limited to full.
Who can predect a small undeveloped puppy is going to turn out to be a great stud, maybe he has both testicles and a low sperm count, what then?
Years back when I was breeding GSD's once in a while I would get a puppy with one or more missing testicles, and if that happened then I would choose to use a different stud, I wouldn't repeat that breeding, it only makes sense.
You have to weed these things out of your breed program...
As for the pup living a healthy normal life, yes, but like Uber said, have them removed or they will lead to cancer.
We had a Labrador Retriever years back that had 1 testicle till he was 6 months, then the other one dropped, that was the longest time I have ever seen it take, I would have to say they should be there at least by 10 weeks of age.
by Sunsilver on 21 July 2009 - 15:07
Undescended or missing testicles have a very strong inherited factor. Any breeder that would sell such animals without a limited registration is NOT ethical!
by deor on 21 July 2009 - 20:07
Yes maybe Kalibeck is correct in saying that possible only the unethical survive in this business. This breeder produces beautiful dogs and it's packaging that sells things in this culture. He presents them well, has a great guarantee and a slick website with beautiful pictures of dogs romping in the fields and being hugged by children. Just like anything sold today, make it look good, put it in a snappy box, associate it with good times and it's sold. The crazy thing is that I'm a label reader, check outs what's in the box before I buy, and here I was making this important decision and I didn't research what's in the box. The ones that have said a novice shouldn't even consider breeding are absolutely right but even buying a dog as a pet is extremely difficult with all these poor breeding practices. I still don't understand why you ethical breeders don't set up an association. Really just a website where your members live up to a standard of excellence.Just a database, maybe with each breeder having a homepage on the association website,each buyer of your dogs could be given a password to access the homepage to comment on their dog and experience. Potential buyers could view the comments but not post. Dave
by Sunsilver on 21 July 2009 - 20:07
I"m afraid that would be re-inventing the wheel, or at least partially re-inventing it: http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/breeders_code.html
Does the SV or other clubs have a similar code?
Does the SV or other clubs have a similar code?
by july9000 on 22 July 2009 - 12:07
My question is: Why did you buy a dog? for breeding purpose or for a family pet? I would be very cautious saying bad things about a breeder that you didn't even met and it looks like he has good garantee that he is willing to transfer to you.
Undescented testicules happen once in a while and I do agree that it is not a serious problem (except if you intend to use the dog for breeding). And if you wait until 6-7 months they might come down..I had some and what I do with the buyer is that I sell the pup a little less to cover the extra cost of the surgery.
Anyway..with NO testicules this do cannot breed( no sperm production and not good) but you should neuter him to prevent the inside testis to become cancerous..
If it was such a deal for you how come you didn't check?? you're a guy..you should know what that looks like!!
Undescented testicules happen once in a while and I do agree that it is not a serious problem (except if you intend to use the dog for breeding). And if you wait until 6-7 months they might come down..I had some and what I do with the buyer is that I sell the pup a little less to cover the extra cost of the surgery.
Anyway..with NO testicules this do cannot breed( no sperm production and not good) but you should neuter him to prevent the inside testis to become cancerous..
If it was such a deal for you how come you didn't check?? you're a guy..you should know what that looks like!!
by divmstr1988 on 22 July 2009 - 13:07
It is true that although I have learned in the last couple of years in the GSD world that there are a lot of unethical breeders out there, also that just because a breeder is a large (top) breeder in this country, it does not make them ethical. But there are also many ethical breeders out there that are willing to help the newbies, that is also why we have organizations like the SV, GSDCA-WDA etc...
In recent months I have learned that those organizations are there to protect the breed, and to also try and stop the unethical practices of some breeders. But the main thing I have also learned is that people have to come forward and stand up for what is right. To many people turn a blind eye to these unethical practices and allow those breeders to continue making money at the expense of the dog so many say they love so much. If we stand together we can put an end to those unethical breeders, and their practices. we can't just sit back and complain. this also goes for those breeders who claim to be so ethical and against these practices, are aware of them but do nothing to stop it, to me they are no better.
Recently I filed a complaint against one of the top breeders (Mittelwest) here in the United States with the GSDCA-WDA, I was also going to file with the USA but received a bit of resistance from a couple of their Board members. My complaint charged Mittelwest with coloring dogs (some of you may remember my post back in April just before the USA Sieger show in Illinois), also with straigtening several dogs tails, one of those happened to be a male I co-owned with this breedeer. Who as it turned out the breeder along with an SV judge/German breeder, Christop Ludwig. Who she also has business with, broke a bone in his tail, while straightening it, as shown on x-rays.
On July 11th 2009 In Chicago, Illinois the GSDCA-WDA had a hearing after there Board Meeting. I am not allowed per "Roberts Rules of Order " to disclose what happened in this hearing. What I can say is that I was very impressed with the way the GSDCA-WDA handled this delicate matter, and greatful for all of it's Board members for the time and energy they put into having a fair and impartial hearing. I can tell you it was not easy for them, they were in a Board meeting from 7:00 am on Saturday until 5:30pm. the hearing started at 6:00pm on Saturday and they did not get out of there until around 4:00am Sunday morning. The one thing I am allowed to say since it is a matter of public record with the GSDCA-WDA is that Julie Carroll Martinez of Mittelwest German Shepherds is no longer a member in good standing with the GSDCA-WDA.
Basically what that means if I am reading the rules of the GSDCA-WDA correct, she nor any dog she owns, unless co-owned, is no longer allowed to participate at any local/regional conformation shows, breed surveys, trials, national events, including the NASS Sieger show until she is returned to good standing with the GSDCA-wda. She may attend with her team but may not participate.
In recent months I have learned that those organizations are there to protect the breed, and to also try and stop the unethical practices of some breeders. But the main thing I have also learned is that people have to come forward and stand up for what is right. To many people turn a blind eye to these unethical practices and allow those breeders to continue making money at the expense of the dog so many say they love so much. If we stand together we can put an end to those unethical breeders, and their practices. we can't just sit back and complain. this also goes for those breeders who claim to be so ethical and against these practices, are aware of them but do nothing to stop it, to me they are no better.
Recently I filed a complaint against one of the top breeders (Mittelwest) here in the United States with the GSDCA-WDA, I was also going to file with the USA but received a bit of resistance from a couple of their Board members. My complaint charged Mittelwest with coloring dogs (some of you may remember my post back in April just before the USA Sieger show in Illinois), also with straigtening several dogs tails, one of those happened to be a male I co-owned with this breedeer. Who as it turned out the breeder along with an SV judge/German breeder, Christop Ludwig. Who she also has business with, broke a bone in his tail, while straightening it, as shown on x-rays.
On July 11th 2009 In Chicago, Illinois the GSDCA-WDA had a hearing after there Board Meeting. I am not allowed per "Roberts Rules of Order " to disclose what happened in this hearing. What I can say is that I was very impressed with the way the GSDCA-WDA handled this delicate matter, and greatful for all of it's Board members for the time and energy they put into having a fair and impartial hearing. I can tell you it was not easy for them, they were in a Board meeting from 7:00 am on Saturday until 5:30pm. the hearing started at 6:00pm on Saturday and they did not get out of there until around 4:00am Sunday morning. The one thing I am allowed to say since it is a matter of public record with the GSDCA-WDA is that Julie Carroll Martinez of Mittelwest German Shepherds is no longer a member in good standing with the GSDCA-WDA.
Basically what that means if I am reading the rules of the GSDCA-WDA correct, she nor any dog she owns, unless co-owned, is no longer allowed to participate at any local/regional conformation shows, breed surveys, trials, national events, including the NASS Sieger show until she is returned to good standing with the GSDCA-wda. She may attend with her team but may not participate.
by Mystere on 22 July 2009 - 16:07
And all she has to do to get around that is enter every dog as co-owned with someone willing to let her use their name, and the dog is entered, the same as before.
by divmstr1988 on 22 July 2009 - 16:07
that is true nothing we can do about that, she can also show at any USA show. most of her females are co-owned anyways.
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