von Prufenpuden .. Any experiences ?? - Page 2

I wasn't so sure Blitz was 'unhappy' exactly;  but it is a very

submissive natured dog,  not used to seeing this in GSDs,

even females.  Not a dog I would want to try doing competition

work, or bitework generally, with.   Not sure if its the training / handling;

judging from this and other videos on that link he seems competant,

if a little harsh & 'old school' ?  Some of the vids show much more

confident - and obviously happy, excited - dogs.    JMO FWIW.

 

Susie, we have an old 'saying' in English:  "The proof of the pudding is

in the eating", meaning if the recipe is good, it will taste good, (if it isn't,

it won't !).   Or in other words, you get out of a thing what you put into

it ... so if you train well, you will get well-trained dogs.  

Blitz was showing a lot of stress, both in his hunkered down body language and heavy panting.  A submissive dog does not need to look like this when doing obedience.  For someone that claims to be a master trainer, he should know better than to try to train all dogs with the same yank 'em, crank 'em techniques. 

It is either ignorance or outright deception for these dogs to be advertised the way they are.  The videos that I watched of dogs being sold as "protection" dogs were nothing more than sport dogs, and weak ones at that. 

If you go back to the "golden age" of schutzhund you will see some dogs looking like Blitz did because they have been beat on so much that the dog begins to fear a beating no matter what he does.  The dog loses confidence in himself and his ability to please his handler.  The switch to positive training methods allowed training younger dogs because back in the good ole days if you started using pain as a motivator (avoidance) on a six month old dog in many cases you ran out of dog before the training was finished.  Blitz was three years old or thereabouts in the video so my guess is that he was trained using pain and punishment .. a three year old dog should be at the peak of confidence and physical strength and Blitz was just wanting that obedience routine to be over before he got his butt kicked  ... again.  I can't know that to be a fact but I know the dog was stressed and very unhappy with his situation, especially on the dog bed with the stay.

I have been following this guy on youtube for a while and don't really like him.  I have joticed many training flaws including young dogs having handler aggression.  These dogs are being sold as Family protection dogs, and I wouldnt trust them around any children.

vonrivera

RUN.

If the phrase "puppy mill" even is encroached in any way with a professional, do not support them.  If the phrase even comes up while discussing a breed of dog, RUN.  If their training methods are discussed in any type rank form "RUN".  If the names are drug thru the mud on ANY forum, facebook, Utube or otherwise "RUN".  Catch my drift...

All experiences and opinions were asked for and are welcomed.  Got something good to say .. please say it.  

The biggest contribution IPO has made to the GSD world is that abusive training techniques are not rewarded in competition if they show in the dog's demeanor or performance.  The SV primarily and probably due to pressure from animal rights people has been ahead of the curve on stepping back and stepping away from abusive training techniques and even the appearance of abuse ( electric collars for example ).  The SV pretty much made it a points deduction if your dog was not happy, attentive, and engaged with the handler.  Dogs that lacked confidence and were unhappy got points deducted and as a result this accelerated positive training techniques in the IPO world.  Aversives when properly done and for which the dog has a clear understanding of why the aversive happened and how to consistently turn it off do not have to shake the confidence or happiness of the dog.  However if the dog gets constant verbal and/or physical abuse pretty soon the dog is neither happy or engaged in the game but is focused on begging for mercy and submissive behavior to stop the abuse.  The dog that has been trained with positive methods will cycle thru what he knows if confused about what the handler is asking while the dog overtrained with aversives will shut down if uncertain about what the handler is asking for.

I have been to ARTC and attended training classes held by David Harris.  He does have some very harsh techniques and seems to use all of the same methods regardless of the dogs temperament.  I purchased a male puppy for $1200 who was out of one of his advertised stud dogs (though not a litter that he owned).  The stud was Sir Parker von Jacobs, who is on the database.  This stud was SCHH2 titled by David Harris and he advertised him for stud services.  The puppy ended up being a cryptorchid male, which the breeder did nothing about, even though he was supposed to be guaranteed for that since I bought him with full registration.  I also spent thousands of dollars on training at ARTC.  When Munich was a little over a year old he started showing agression towards me when I worked him.  I went to David and he offered to purchase him for $500.  I sold him the dog with the understanding that he would neuter and work with him to eventually find him a suitable home.  A week later Munich was advertised on David's website for $9500 and was later sold, I am guessing for around this amount and as an inact male (with one undescended testicle or they found an unethical vet to pull the other one down as this procedure was mentioned to me by the breeder).  

I have also worked with master trainer Jeff Edington, who has a puppy from one of David Harris' breedings and that dog now has SEVERE HD at just 5 years old (China von Prufenpuden).  

I am sure there are people who have gotten some great dogs (at outrageous prices) from David Harris.  I just wanted to provide my personal experiences with him.

Forgot to mention that I found out later that the stud dog, Parker, was put to sleep for agression problems towards his owners when my pup was about 6 months old. Definitely seemed sketchy to me.

Thanks to all for their replies both private and public.  The unanimous concensus is that David Harris of von Prufenpuden, Animal Resort Training Center, and Protection Dog Sales all located in Frankfort Kentucky is far from a Master Trainer as he calls himself .. in fact he uses very harsh and abusive techniques which in many cases harms the dogs both mentally and physically.  Several owners of dogs trained by him reported dogs with weak nerves which they had bought from him.  When young dogs were sent to him for training they came back wrecked and in the owners opinion they had been beaten.  These are my opinions after communicating with some of his customers.  Not a single customer that I communicated with had a good thing to say about his training results.  Your mileage may vary.  If someone has a dog trained by him that is the best ever now would be the time to come to his defense.