people with knowledge of Gento - Page 2

What I heard of, and saw, in Gento progeny was hardness, social aggression, and some handler aggression.

robby was known to be quite hard headed, but there again, he sired many really fine dogs.
i believe it has more to do with knowing how to use what you have to work with.  :)  the dam
plays an equally important role in producing good dogs.
pjp

I met Robby's owner. I was told Robby was just a "normal" dog.

how far back/forward do you have to go untill you can say effectively that a particular sire is not contributing much in yr dog. i am a bit confused at my own question as the dog you have is a result of evry other dog in its line back to the wolf (or something) but what i am saying is surely each successive generation is shaped less both those further back in the line and more by those up closest. not asking for a mathematical formula and when you factor line breeding ....ah too complicated, forget it, just confusing myself.

me like what i see in Gento progeny - who bred him, is the breeder still alive, is he contactable?

the age old question ---  which dogs matter??  frist three generations? -- first 5? -- some dog from 1952?  IDK IDK  !

when I see a dog- i have an extreme need to see his papers-- i need to know what he's made of.  Is that fair to the dog?  probably not.
I  most assuredly might judge him based on his grandfather - or some such nonsense.  but i know better --  at the same time - i think the "background" is important -- This database has made it painfully obvious how lines progress --  when you can see 3-4-5 generations down from a superstud - and there is nothing but quality and they in turn produce more and more consistent quality - you can easily see what you're working with.

on the other hand --  one exquisite stand-alone dog (who may or may not produce himself -  is not enough --  i need to know if he was the only "good one" in his litter --  was the rest "popcorn" -- or were they the revered "cookie-cutter" puppies?---  Nearly all of my litters were way more out-crossed than line-bred - yet there were not large variances among littermates.  It's certainly possible to achieve consistency without going in 12 times on the same dog ---  those people know who they are. 

I like to think that the first three generations are important -- if you see 5-6 dogs who died young, for example -- there is cause or concern about longevity.   I want the dam to be an exemplary mother --  soo many people make excuses for their  psycho  bitch --  "She's protective of the puppies" --   or I can't let her out with the puppies because she plays too ruff with them" -- really?  I was born - but not yesterday !!!  puppies learn FEAR (fear of humans -- what to fear) in the whelping box -- period.. 

I've traced one of my dog's pedigrees back 14 generations -- thanks to this database--  back to the breeders FIRST LITTER -- and it meant a lot to me to see all those dogs - and how they evolved.   and the generations of HGH bitches (and dogs too) count as least as much as the flashy V and VA studs they were bred to. 

years ago - if I saw a pedigree with Canto Weinerau -- i wasn't interested. Even tho they were touted as the best dogs of their day.
Today - if i find Canto/Quanto in a dog it's at least 7-8 generations away so I don't care very much.

There are countless stories about  stud dogs especially --  from how great they were/are - to how horrible their pupppies were. 
In this game,  people are quick to tear you down -- but usually only if you have a dog better than theirs (and they know it) -- if you have a mediocre dog - they would encourage you to show it -  so there would be a major and their dog would get the points.  If you're in sport  --  they'll encourage you to compete -- so  their dog's score is higher than yours - and then they'll  remind u of it for a very long time. 

anyway - I digress ---  if you want to breed -- go your own way --  listen to the old timers --  take the bits and pieces of  advice/information that make sense to YOU - and leave the rest -- do your own thing -- nobody can tell you that you're doing it wrong !!!   Just don't become kennel-blind and boast too loudly about an awesome litter -- the next one might not be so great - but  we have to keep trying  --  lord knows this breed needs people to watch over it and protect it from destruction.

//end rant//  
   




   

you talk about this database, that puts a lot of faith in yr considered breeding decisions that the entries in this database are accurrate. ok you done yr study and you obviously think that knowing the lines has some impact on the type of dog you get - some concern about how much influence comes from how far back. assume according to inheritance principes that a particular sire/s or dam/s makes a huge difference (how much, how far back is debatable) what if one popular sire in the database was either faked or entered honestly but incorrectly cos the honest person got false data from a dishonest person. that error would multiply exponentially with each generation affecting prolly thousands of dogs. can it be anything but this case???

if the affect of distant relatives is small on current litter this would not be a problem, if the affect of inheritance is significant it's a problem. some of the countries breeding gsd's have had bigger issues to deal with than keeping books on peds i would assume so personally i am not that interested in any dog that i can not see further back than recent living history - don't care what X line did back in the war, seems too unreliable to affect what i might be seeing now - jmo, i am not a breeder but have had my heart stolen by the breed....dammit.

another point i would bring up - famous stud dogs - this is to me circumstantial. what of the cop or guard that just gets a dog thru his organisation - the cop may not have a clue about the dogs ped, i hear a lot don't. could be the dam best dog on the planet, only person that really knows would be the handler who is not a trial competitor or a breeder and just knows the dog is doing his job. his last dog was a mal and the one before that was rott. he just takes the dog his superior tells him to and it works or it is washed out. that dog will never be famous or known by anyone excpet the cop, his team and the cops family perhaps. take now a guy that has had schuts in his family for 100 years, highly competent trainer, best decoy, club etc. does well and wins the nationals so evryone on the planet breeds from that sire and the sire is now famous, on straight numbers and high quality females he served there is a lot of other famous progeny. might be no better than the unkown cop dog who's genes are lost from the gene pool just became famous from his circumstances and obviously was a decent dog as well.

thats why i will put more importance on what i can see thats breathing....and biting than what i see on the database.

My husband had a Gento son back in the late 90's.   "Major" was a true dominant agressive male.  He was also my first try at a sport dog.  We did get through the BH, but he was not suited for the sport.  He was more suited as a real world body guard.  Although he would not take a correction from me, he would without a doubt, die to defend family and home.   We could never take him for granted or let our guard down during his 12 years on earth.    Would I want another Gento progeny?????  You bet.

thanks for info porge. i heard he was fine boned and hectic to live with? wonder if there is just better stuff around to not mess with it now? must be some more dogs on the ground with him up close?

VK4gsd,
Actually, Major had massive bone and one of the broadest heads I have ever seen.  All of his littermates were consistent with large bone.  The Gento son we had was not hectic, just the opposite.  Layed back, not very vocal, and did not expend energy unless there was a need.  No snarling or growling, just a lightening lunge and crushing grip.  I have an old photo I will scan & post.

My current dog is wonderful.  A good example of a "Modern" well bred dog.   A Yochy grandson on the sire side and a nice Slovakia line on on the Dam's.  He has super drive, not people or dog agressive, we made SchHIII before he turned 4yrs. (HOT) and FH.  Now he is active SAR in both Florida and Pennsylvania.  I have had him worked by two helpers at the same time, and practiced leg and shoulder bites.  I do love him, but he does not give the same secure feeling that the Gento son gave.  The Gento son was intuitive to danger.   On the street, he would ignore the lady with the baby, but want to rip the punk with the loud mouth out of a moving car.
He demanded eye contact from any perceived threat and wanted to bring the fight to him.  He was not politically correct and probably not appropriate for modern society.  
We suspect he may have had DM.  not sure.

And that's all I know of a Gento progeny.  

Pine ridge, two very good posts :)