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by DebiSue on 10 November 2010 - 00:11
Heart breaking is what it is. My little showline girl has such beautiful hocks, straight up and down and her movement is really lovely to watch, none of the down hill slope, frog legging seen here. But alas...her hips are no good so she won't be adding to the gene pool. She is not perfect but I'd put her hocks and movement up against anyone's and I'm sure that silly excuse for a judge would toss her from the ring.
by Penny on 10 November 2010 - 02:11
Thank you Nugget, a very sensibke and neutral approach.
I could so easily throw my dummy out of the pram and rant and rave reading the above posts, and seeing again the ridiculous, tampered with U-Tube video raise its silly head... but I am going to try to be a constructive as Nugget, with a slant on dog breeding and exhibiting side, so not so neutral.
The U-Tube as above are clearly tampered with, if only squashed up on the left side of all of the animals displayed. The movement on the dogs at Manchester Dog Show looks clearly incorrect, and on one would want to own a dog that moved like that to breed and show if they had any serious thoughts in their head.
DebiSue - so sorry that your dog has a poor hip status, but just to allow you to know that correct show dogs do not walk like ski slopes, see them off lead and at ease and they have a very slight angle from wither to tail base, so perhaps your dog would not have been thrown out at Crufts, perhaps you have just been given bad information.
Now to the nitty gritty. The U-Tube dialogue states this was one of the major Ch shows. NO IT WASNT it was a General Ch show run by the KC on a poor floor surface, with an inadequate ring, and with dogs not behaving correctly at all - pulling in to their leads on various corners trying to get to their owners or people they knew. It is a show that lots of people groan at because they know the venue, and only go to because a member of the committee of that show (a collie man in fact) makes sure that excellent correct judges are appointed.....and its not a good one for a gaiting breed.
Crufts: just the same. Get yourself a pair of trainers on, without tread, and run around pulling on that surface - bet some of you will go over. Typical of Manchester, inadequate rings for the amount of dogs entered and poor surface and a house ful of jobsworthys enjoying their tannoys whilst people make a fool of their dogs as they cannot stand and openly give their dog a little call to get the ears looking erect... they have to do as above.... and it spoils the dogs more times than not.
So. That shows us a problem with our dogs. TRAINING - OUTSIDE ATTRACTION SPOILING THE DOG - Yes, I have attracted my dog from the outside of the ring, and kicked myself when over doing it and spoiled the outline and movement of my dog.....
Now we are out of the strangle hold that the KC held on us, exhibitors that think anything of their dogs (i.e. the ones that do all relevant health checks, and get their dogs working qualified too) have really put things together. Why? Because we have lovely venues to use at our Regional shows, we think more of the dog and its ability to gait than the amount of money we will rake in for the KC, Committees put up safe areas for us to give our dogs a call, and guess what outside attraction is no longer necessary in the same way as it was, because we are not being chased by over zealous jobsworthys with a tannoy. So we are not found hiding behind cars, whistling, jumping up from behind chairs or tents or even worse careering around the rings like our backsides were on fire, over exciting our very loyal and sensitive breed, and by the eway, like the KC shows of yesteryear, no one has gotten hurt either. There`s a place for us to give our dog a call in a relaxed manner, when it is necessary and not before, and wow dog shows are different again.
Lets go to the dogs that I stated have diabolical movement above. Why am I hot under the collar about the post if I agree with their movement? Because I know those dogs, personally, and very well, I have judged them at times, and I know full well, that they DO NOT move like that. Not in a million years do those top dogs that were video`d move like
I could so easily throw my dummy out of the pram and rant and rave reading the above posts, and seeing again the ridiculous, tampered with U-Tube video raise its silly head... but I am going to try to be a constructive as Nugget, with a slant on dog breeding and exhibiting side, so not so neutral.
The U-Tube as above are clearly tampered with, if only squashed up on the left side of all of the animals displayed. The movement on the dogs at Manchester Dog Show looks clearly incorrect, and on one would want to own a dog that moved like that to breed and show if they had any serious thoughts in their head.
DebiSue - so sorry that your dog has a poor hip status, but just to allow you to know that correct show dogs do not walk like ski slopes, see them off lead and at ease and they have a very slight angle from wither to tail base, so perhaps your dog would not have been thrown out at Crufts, perhaps you have just been given bad information.
Now to the nitty gritty. The U-Tube dialogue states this was one of the major Ch shows. NO IT WASNT it was a General Ch show run by the KC on a poor floor surface, with an inadequate ring, and with dogs not behaving correctly at all - pulling in to their leads on various corners trying to get to their owners or people they knew. It is a show that lots of people groan at because they know the venue, and only go to because a member of the committee of that show (a collie man in fact) makes sure that excellent correct judges are appointed.....and its not a good one for a gaiting breed.
Crufts: just the same. Get yourself a pair of trainers on, without tread, and run around pulling on that surface - bet some of you will go over. Typical of Manchester, inadequate rings for the amount of dogs entered and poor surface and a house ful of jobsworthys enjoying their tannoys whilst people make a fool of their dogs as they cannot stand and openly give their dog a little call to get the ears looking erect... they have to do as above.... and it spoils the dogs more times than not.
So. That shows us a problem with our dogs. TRAINING - OUTSIDE ATTRACTION SPOILING THE DOG - Yes, I have attracted my dog from the outside of the ring, and kicked myself when over doing it and spoiled the outline and movement of my dog.....
Now we are out of the strangle hold that the KC held on us, exhibitors that think anything of their dogs (i.e. the ones that do all relevant health checks, and get their dogs working qualified too) have really put things together. Why? Because we have lovely venues to use at our Regional shows, we think more of the dog and its ability to gait than the amount of money we will rake in for the KC, Committees put up safe areas for us to give our dogs a call, and guess what outside attraction is no longer necessary in the same way as it was, because we are not being chased by over zealous jobsworthys with a tannoy. So we are not found hiding behind cars, whistling, jumping up from behind chairs or tents or even worse careering around the rings like our backsides were on fire, over exciting our very loyal and sensitive breed, and by the eway, like the KC shows of yesteryear, no one has gotten hurt either. There`s a place for us to give our dog a call in a relaxed manner, when it is necessary and not before, and wow dog shows are different again.
Lets go to the dogs that I stated have diabolical movement above. Why am I hot under the collar about the post if I agree with their movement? Because I know those dogs, personally, and very well, I have judged them at times, and I know full well, that they DO NOT move like that. Not in a million years do those top dogs that were video`d move like
by Penny on 10 November 2010 - 02:11
Long-winded and the post cut me off sorry - but to continue...
These dogs are excellent dogs, found moving badly by pulling at certain parts of the ring, and tampered with on video. And on the dialogue - who is this emminent orthopaedit bloke, I am sure he is good at his job, but google him and compare his credentials with that of Dr Malcolm Willis who has also owned gsds since the 50`s - so has seen the changes. And the RSPCA bloke - well if you held a candle up to him, what knowledge does he have besides his uniform and a pay packet and the useless job of telling the public that unless the dog to be rescued is on its last legs, the RSPCA cant help, because donations go to help their fat cats, and not the furry kind.... yes, can see why he was brought in to it....
Lets not also forget that there are some poor moving dogs, and they wouldnt win under myself, unless they were puppies that had to strengthen in ligature and muscle, and were otherwise very good pups - and if the above negative people get themselves to our Regional shows, they will see the real GSD in action, and the real people with them, without the wallies and their tannoys making them edgy and sometimes rude.
There is usually a way around people being wrong, its called non critical education, but its not tampering with videos - bullying someones precious top winning dog in public, just because they favour the now long gone Alsatian (well from name anyway) and I am aware that the spelling isnt correct, doesnt really matter does it they are extinct.
These dogs did not resenble correct show dogs, nor working dogs. What we are now leaning towards is a pro-active society of GSD owners that are helping each other out, I have learned lots and lots since going to Sch.h. / IPO clubs, and now appreciate both types of animal, and look forward to the days when we are totally integrated with a clear headed, fabulous looking, sound GSD.
It wont happen in the days of the above posters, they will make sure of that. Mo. Mascani.
These dogs are excellent dogs, found moving badly by pulling at certain parts of the ring, and tampered with on video. And on the dialogue - who is this emminent orthopaedit bloke, I am sure he is good at his job, but google him and compare his credentials with that of Dr Malcolm Willis who has also owned gsds since the 50`s - so has seen the changes. And the RSPCA bloke - well if you held a candle up to him, what knowledge does he have besides his uniform and a pay packet and the useless job of telling the public that unless the dog to be rescued is on its last legs, the RSPCA cant help, because donations go to help their fat cats, and not the furry kind.... yes, can see why he was brought in to it....
Lets not also forget that there are some poor moving dogs, and they wouldnt win under myself, unless they were puppies that had to strengthen in ligature and muscle, and were otherwise very good pups - and if the above negative people get themselves to our Regional shows, they will see the real GSD in action, and the real people with them, without the wallies and their tannoys making them edgy and sometimes rude.
There is usually a way around people being wrong, its called non critical education, but its not tampering with videos - bullying someones precious top winning dog in public, just because they favour the now long gone Alsatian (well from name anyway) and I am aware that the spelling isnt correct, doesnt really matter does it they are extinct.
These dogs did not resenble correct show dogs, nor working dogs. What we are now leaning towards is a pro-active society of GSD owners that are helping each other out, I have learned lots and lots since going to Sch.h. / IPO clubs, and now appreciate both types of animal, and look forward to the days when we are totally integrated with a clear headed, fabulous looking, sound GSD.
It wont happen in the days of the above posters, they will make sure of that. Mo. Mascani.
by Penny on 10 November 2010 - 02:11
When watching the U-tube videos here, I have to ask - did anyone see the one that was going around of the man standing on the top balcony of twin towers just as the plane behind him was going to hit it..... did you believe that too? Mo.
by Red Sable on 10 November 2010 - 02:11
Penny, your post was long, and I'm tired and admit to not reading it all very closely, so forgive me if I misunderstood you, but are you saying this problem does not exist even in the winning dogs?
I respectfully disagree. It is everywhere, certainly in many of the dogs advertised on this website and certainly in the show rings in Canada that I have attended.
I'm off to bed, gotta work early. If you are a judge, someone wants to talk to you on the sister thread on the other side.
I respectfully disagree. It is everywhere, certainly in many of the dogs advertised on this website and certainly in the show rings in Canada that I have attended.
I'm off to bed, gotta work early. If you are a judge, someone wants to talk to you on the sister thread on the other side.
by Penny on 10 November 2010 - 08:11
Hi Red Sable,
Yes, my post was far too long, its a very diverse subject and "droning on" is my weakness, sorry. However, No. You will see at a point in my post, that I do agree that there are dogs with this weakness.
Regards Mo.
Yes, my post was far too long, its a very diverse subject and "droning on" is my weakness, sorry. However, No. You will see at a point in my post, that I do agree that there are dogs with this weakness.
Regards Mo.
by bazza on 10 November 2010 - 08:11
Penny as usual an excellent post but will fall mainly on deaf ears. Some people will believe what they want to believe, end of!! As I said on the exact same thread on the other side, you got to love all these expert, outside the ring judges!!! How many more times will this EXACT same subject come up, now we have it on both sides of the forum, lol. Now before anyone jumps in on their high horse.....are there dogs with exaggerated hind angulation? Yep, you bet, but " German Shepherd Half Dog Half Frog" paleeeeeeeeese!! That must be the most stupid statement I have ever heard!!! Obviously made by those who have no idea of show dogs, show scene, and most probably have never actually been near a correct GSD show or dog, and judge by what they read in places like this. Pity really........don't know what your missing!!!!!! Okay " experts" over to you, lol.lol.
by missbeeb on 10 November 2010 - 10:11
Same old, same old... please keep in mind that Jemima only used footage of 4 dogs for her condemnation; there's a BIG clue there.
by Sue B on 10 November 2010 - 11:11
Well said Missbeeb. Yes four dogs featured over two shows filmed, hardly proof the breed is riddled with it. As for the OP, the name suits you perfectly, anyone who only ever acts through vindictiveness, jealousy and/or spite truly is An Ugly soab.!!! Suggestion, do what Mo has said, pop along to a real GSD show where only healthy dogs are on exhibition or better still Ugly throughout, just Get A Life!!!.
With the contempt you deserve for resurrecting an old thread in the hope of opening up old wounds.
Sue b
Nuggett - Thank You Nugget, once again a sensible, reasonable, unbiased post from a Working Dog Man with an excellent knowledge of showline dogs and people. Wish all could be as fair and say it as it really is, oh how much better both factions would work together for the betterment of the breed. Its Working people like you Nugget (and there are an increasing number now in the UK thank God) that have aided the growing enthusiasm from showline breeders to embrace the working world. Long may the likes of you reign.
As ever my best regards
Sue b
With the contempt you deserve for resurrecting an old thread in the hope of opening up old wounds.
Sue b
Nuggett - Thank You Nugget, once again a sensible, reasonable, unbiased post from a Working Dog Man with an excellent knowledge of showline dogs and people. Wish all could be as fair and say it as it really is, oh how much better both factions would work together for the betterment of the breed. Its Working people like you Nugget (and there are an increasing number now in the UK thank God) that have aided the growing enthusiasm from showline breeders to embrace the working world. Long may the likes of you reign.
As ever my best regards
Sue b
by Doppelganger on 10 November 2010 - 11:11
'they have a very slight angle from with to tail base'
Like this one?
http://www.lararth.co.uk/enzo_degli_achei.htm
Like this one?
http://www.lararth.co.uk/enzo_degli_achei.htm
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