Some Training Advise Please - Page 2

yes Mo i agree.Dex excellent post.i would be proud to sell you a puppy?no guys not touting for business.my girls too old for babies now.Carole S.

Absolutely EVERYTHING you teach your dog, whether basic or advanced obedince training or behavioural modification MUST be taught ON lead.
If you cannot get your dog to do what you require ON lead then there is no way on earth that the dog will obey when OFF lead.

The only thing that flexi leads are any good for is allowing a dog limited freedom to go and relieve itself. As Mo has already said flexi leads TEACH a dog to pull. Look at it from a dogs point of view..."I want a bit more space so I pull a bit and get a bit more"....this is fine until dog/owner are 15 feet apart and there is no more lead left in the handle. Dog pulls to get a bit more and owner falls over or runs like hell. Dogs quite naturally pull on the flexi lead from minute one as the spring that holds the lead taught, causes constant pressure on the dogs collar and dogs pull away from tension when it's behind them.

Recall training is best started on a normal length lead, few inches, then feet, then longer lead, then long line. ONLY when 100% should you consider attempting off lead as if it IS 100% the dog will recall as it knows of no alternative having never been allowed to get away with ignoring the recall command.

As everything taught ON lead is controlled by the person doing the training, the dog can be corrected/ rewarded accordingly and it will then be a much easier task to get the dog to always get things right in return for the reward. Consistent reward and no correction means the dog is learning and almost there.

If the dog has issues with other dogs/ people/distraction etc etc etc then this should be dealt with ON lead a LONG time before the dog is given freedom.

In my years of watching people with the average dog(s) and learning some obedience training and responsible dog ownership there have been VERY FEW dogs that should EVER  be let off lead ANYWHERE.  PERIOD...  They are trained on leash, they are brought in and out of their yards ON LEASH and put back into their own environments ON LEASH, definitely never walk off leash in public;  why??  Well we do not want the German Shepherd to be scrutinized due to some irresponsible dog owner.  You CANNOT allow them to go after another dog that is totally unacceptable behavior on the dogs part and guess what;  YOU THE OWNER (s) are responsible for any damages done.  Good luck  Nanci

PS:  We want to protect the German Shepherd breed from making any mistakes such as this or any other public mistakes;  the public needs to learn how loyal and devoted to humans and animals this breed is NOT BY SHOWING THEM irresponsible dog ownership.  Just look at the Pit Bull track record;  really is devastating;  we do not want to go there with our beloved Shepherds.

 HHHHmmm. freedoms  are earned ! 2. correct if you cannot see the desired behavior of 1 dog on leash then what is the expectation off leash . 3. in essence , this is the problem i have in the concept of ' Recall" --- dogs .. do not do things merely because one "says' so-- a lot of people think they do .. but they do not !! . 4. in order to fix aggression problem ' one has to know what is not right / broken 'in order to be able to fix the problem .. ie.  as one stated what are the dynamics.. e.g / one illustration .. are the dogs feeling they won you / have to protect you ? WAYYYY to much to converse about .. IMO you need more than just a dog training class .. you need someone very very knowledgeably and I will tell you right now ... be prepared for a lot of time and effort.. one last comment .. dogs are not robots .as one has commented- the best rained dogs in the world .. make mistakes/ they are not 100% reliable . AP

if they were mine i would take them to a club with other dogs. one to one will help but at a club they will learn to listen to u when there is other dogs around. i got to a gsd obedience club  with my 10 year old and my new 10 week old will be going next week. i would try take them one by one coz they may be one of them that is worse than the other, which the other may just play off. (making them both look as bad as eachother). u need to find out which one is the leader of the two, there will be one.  

by noddi on 05 August 2010 - 09:08

noddi

Posts: 606
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 03:33 pm
yes Mo i agree.Dex excellent post.i would be proud to sell you a puppy?no guys not touting for business.my girls too old for babies now.Carole S.

What a compliment Carole just paid Dex.Nice to see,made me smile.

 i want to reiterate : you need professional guidance .. as stated with someone very well versed. i bet most people replying here have NO Professional qualified credentials to solve your problem .. case in point : you go to a club ... and ? what do you think your dogs will do ??? and if they aggress .. how will you handle the situation ?/; handle your dogs ?? will you use a collar and leash and if so what kind ?? are you able to do behavior modification ?? SURE putting a dog [s] in the view of other dogs at some point is needed for that is the problem , their behavior to other dogs .. BUT THAT should occur ..  when you and the dogs are prepared !! BUT...  to just show up at a club or a class without first talking to a Pro or the club /class person in charge .. that is just plum foolish and IMO irresponsible . : i  cannot from a distance and via verse help you .. i know how .. that is why I reposted.. I can share with you two factors if i were to work with you : 1. you must set all the relationships a right -, you and each dog , between the dogs themselves , and you with all the dogs !! 2. you must change their outlook , their thoughts , feelings , motives and behavior choice at the even the mere initial site of another dog [ ie their relationships to other dogs]   for starters.  [this involves timing and distance]-- if you do not address these factors .. i don't care where you go , who you work with , what else you do ... you will only be manifesting a continued , well ingrained , permanent aggression problem with each and both dogs !! you can't just go by : " well this is what i have done , this is my advice : with some posters .. because -- i am telling you  emphatically  you are going to get into trouble !! BIG TROUBLE

Hi Tammicats,

We too have simular aged dogs mother & son with the same problem,  We dont walk them together as they set each other off.  We are not striving to let them off in public, just for them to behave and have manners in public.  I do recomend you contact Mo for her help and advice, she has helped us alot with our dogs and giving us the confidence to work with our dogs.  We currently use the long line so they are much more relaxed on walks.  There is no quick fix keep up the good work.

Linda 

Why to discuss cost of training? It depends on what  is customary in your area.
Here is your problem. You have not establish leadership position. Thus your dogs feel that they are in charge of you and this particular situation and they are "protecting" you. 
 I personally believe that you need to go to square one in training and train  each  dog individually with Positive x Negative training method.  Your effort should be directed to:
1. establishing leadership position 
2. This means, besides training your dogs, that you must (most importantly)  also train your self. That is, you must change your "natural" attitude towards your dogs. That is because that attitude leads to your dogs problems. That is the hardest thing fro you to do and without that you will not be able to succeed. You must understand that you are the leader and not an equal partner to your dogs. 
3. You must understand that it took your dogs their age to became what they are and develop all good and bad behaviors. It will then take you long time to fix these problems. Thus do not expect that you will find silver bullet solution. This will take some time and hundreds to thousands of repetitions. 
4.  you must achieve neutral, defused behavior of each individual dog.
Dog must not be "under control" but must be "defused" that means must be uninterested in the other dogs or be neutral to friendly or neutral dogs.
Then and ONLY THEN,  when you succeed in point 1-3 , you need to use specialized positive reinforcement conditioning.  
When the dog sees another dog, then  in that moment, (before any animosity descends into your dog's heart)  you will play with your dog stick ( on long line) or use treats if your dog does not play stick. That will lead to positive  conditioning of your dog's brain and the dog will be happy to see other dog rather then be aggressive since he will associate sight of the other dog with positive.

All this may be very difficult or impossible to do without guidance of a good trainer familiar with these techniques.
£400 seems like a bargain to me to pay for such trainer in comparison of the cost of a law suite if your dog bites a person who is going to try to brake a dog fight caused by your dogs. There are many schmucks with a leash....claiming to be trainers.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com