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by GermanK9lover on 14 March 2010 - 18:03
I have a Czech male Grim grandson.
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/621514.html
this is his son
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/646086.html hows this boys pedigree?
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/621514.html
this is his son
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/646086.html hows this boys pedigree?
by Prager on 14 March 2010 - 19:03
This is what I am talking about. Both very nice Czech pedigrees with all aspects of working dogs. structure , hips. pigment, workability, spirit.
However I would like to know more about Doren z Pohranicni straze. Was she ever x rayed. If she has good hips that would make it an almost perfect picture of total GSD.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
However I would like to know more about Doren z Pohranicni straze. Was she ever x rayed. If she has good hips that would make it an almost perfect picture of total GSD.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 14 March 2010 - 20:03
OK, third try here: you've stated that Jinopo kennels still strives to maintain the "old border patrol" style of breeding, so I'd like to know what current producers are the most accurate representations of this type of dog? The answer to this may seem obvious to yourself, but to me and perhaps others, it is not.
The answer is : "All of them."
I am not trying to be flippant about it. I actually have called Jiri and asked him and that is what he told me. And when I pressed him harder and harder and asked him with stipulation of " just between me and you" he still was unable to tell. He said that he would not hesitate to have any of these studs in his breeding program back then. And Jiri is kind of a low key guy and he was really trying to figure out the answer to the question. Than he said Bady and then Ox and then he said Carly and then he said again: "No, all of them ." They would all be as good or better then the dogs he had back then.
So there is your answer. And I guess that is how it should be if you know what you are doing.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
The answer is : "All of them."
I am not trying to be flippant about it. I actually have called Jiri and asked him and that is what he told me. And when I pressed him harder and harder and asked him with stipulation of " just between me and you" he still was unable to tell. He said that he would not hesitate to have any of these studs in his breeding program back then. And Jiri is kind of a low key guy and he was really trying to figure out the answer to the question. Than he said Bady and then Ox and then he said Carly and then he said again: "No, all of them ." They would all be as good or better then the dogs he had back then.
So there is your answer. And I guess that is how it should be if you know what you are doing.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by GermanK9lover on 14 March 2010 - 23:03
I do not know if she was IM his 3rd owner my male did OFA Excellent though..I cannot find anything out about his parents except Norbert Safko was the owner of mom and his policeman friend owned dad...
by DDRshep on 16 March 2010 - 06:03
Based on videos on the Jinopo site, it is very interesting to compare the 3 stud dogs Prager mentioned. Bady looks the most like the dog that would get the points in SchH out of the 3. His work looks very much like what a good West German working line would look like especially those coming from Tom Leefdalhof. No suprise, Bady is basically West, Czech half and half. Nothing wrong with that and if one wants a West line that is a good match to Czech lines, Tom L. might be the best way to go about it. If I wanted a Czech pup for SchH, this is the stud I would pick.
Carly looks like to have a touch of sharpness to him, or was badly trained when he was too young with too much pressure. Its difficult to tell from videos without knowing the dog's background. If one likes sharpness in their Czech dogs and thinks the border patrol lines should have a higher sharpness level than West lines, he might be the one to go to. Would make a good watch dog as good sharp dogs do.
To me, the bite work of Ox looks the most "old school" of the 3. He looks like a strong, balanced dog. His pups would probably do well in any working area: police, SAR, etc. but not get as much points in SchH as Bady.
Of course, this is assuming the studs will pass on their characteristics to the pups 100% which is not always the case, the mother contributes 50% of the genes and even more in the raising, and videos don't tell everything, just a little bit.
Carly looks like to have a touch of sharpness to him, or was badly trained when he was too young with too much pressure. Its difficult to tell from videos without knowing the dog's background. If one likes sharpness in their Czech dogs and thinks the border patrol lines should have a higher sharpness level than West lines, he might be the one to go to. Would make a good watch dog as good sharp dogs do.
To me, the bite work of Ox looks the most "old school" of the 3. He looks like a strong, balanced dog. His pups would probably do well in any working area: police, SAR, etc. but not get as much points in SchH as Bady.
Of course, this is assuming the studs will pass on their characteristics to the pups 100% which is not always the case, the mother contributes 50% of the genes and even more in the raising, and videos don't tell everything, just a little bit.
by darylehret on 16 March 2010 - 11:03
Prager, I should ask; have you actually seen these dogs in person?
by gsdk9va on 16 March 2010 - 16:03
Hmmm! Interesting! Thanks for getting that feedback Hans! I am a little surprised by Jiri's response, that basically his entire stud line-up is of "complete" dogs, if you will. That sort of implies that he would be comfortable putting any of his studs to any of his females and get his desired result, the old czech style dog.
I have read the descriptions and watched all the stud videos (and many of the females) on Jinopo, and I saw very different dogs (like DDRshep). I'm no expert, but one of the lines seemed verrry slow, but hard. Another very fast and athletic. I also saw clear headedness and Carly's nippy sharpness....not a criticism, just different. I like DDRshep's analysis and breakdown. He/she explained what they saw better than I could.
My interest is to better understand the bloodlines used and the characteristics they bring (sporty, hard, sharp, old school & not sporty etc.) That way you can better understand the bloodlines combinations and the male to female combinations used at Jinopo.
Example: Female from bloodline x is very athletic , clear headed, and sporty was breed to male from bloodline y known to bring more hardness. With this combination of bloodlines and dogs I expect z puppies.
For me at least, it's not so easy to understand the combinations and why they are chosen. But if all the dogs used are "complete" and worthy of the zPs standard, then the combinations shouldn't matter. I guess that's a helluva proclamation that Jiri's hard culling has yielded him exactly what he wants in all his dogs being used for breeding.
Thanks again, and I'll continue to follow this discussion with interest.
I have read the descriptions and watched all the stud videos (and many of the females) on Jinopo, and I saw very different dogs (like DDRshep). I'm no expert, but one of the lines seemed verrry slow, but hard. Another very fast and athletic. I also saw clear headedness and Carly's nippy sharpness....not a criticism, just different. I like DDRshep's analysis and breakdown. He/she explained what they saw better than I could.
My interest is to better understand the bloodlines used and the characteristics they bring (sporty, hard, sharp, old school & not sporty etc.) That way you can better understand the bloodlines combinations and the male to female combinations used at Jinopo.
Example: Female from bloodline x is very athletic , clear headed, and sporty was breed to male from bloodline y known to bring more hardness. With this combination of bloodlines and dogs I expect z puppies.
For me at least, it's not so easy to understand the combinations and why they are chosen. But if all the dogs used are "complete" and worthy of the zPs standard, then the combinations shouldn't matter. I guess that's a helluva proclamation that Jiri's hard culling has yielded him exactly what he wants in all his dogs being used for breeding.
Thanks again, and I'll continue to follow this discussion with interest.
by duke1965 on 16 March 2010 - 17:03
I ve seen many of jinopo"s todays dogs personally , and even if I dont agree with hans on everything ,I totally understand wat Hans and Jiri are meaning by this
even if the pedigrees of the various dogs are different , in general they are recognizable as a group of dogs with a certain spark , I must say that is nowadays more the case than before IMO
without a doubt , every dog is different in levels of drives , sharpness etc . but you can see the same power , explosiveness and workwillingness in all the males , Bady , cary , jago , and ox , , and the same goes for several females from which Gina is my favorite
DDRshep , about Baddy , he is part west , as you say , but he definately has many traits from his mother cher bily trpaslik , who herself was a great dog and great producer , also chers sister charlie billy trpaslik is a bitch to die for , who will fit inbetween the jinopo dogs without a problem
also outside jinopo there are several great dogs in czech that I wouldnot mind having in my kennel , like : bor z otova dvoru , basco z dobrecovske skoly , omarr eqidius ,image stary skout , lexa z danaru , bora excalibur europa , imo anrebri , josemite kamos , and nargo helilein to name a few
even if the pedigrees of the various dogs are different , in general they are recognizable as a group of dogs with a certain spark , I must say that is nowadays more the case than before IMO
without a doubt , every dog is different in levels of drives , sharpness etc . but you can see the same power , explosiveness and workwillingness in all the males , Bady , cary , jago , and ox , , and the same goes for several females from which Gina is my favorite
DDRshep , about Baddy , he is part west , as you say , but he definately has many traits from his mother cher bily trpaslik , who herself was a great dog and great producer , also chers sister charlie billy trpaslik is a bitch to die for , who will fit inbetween the jinopo dogs without a problem
also outside jinopo there are several great dogs in czech that I wouldnot mind having in my kennel , like : bor z otova dvoru , basco z dobrecovske skoly , omarr eqidius ,image stary skout , lexa z danaru , bora excalibur europa , imo anrebri , josemite kamos , and nargo helilein to name a few
by darylehret on 16 March 2010 - 19:03
"image stary skout" was for sale about a year and half ago in FL, but the owner changed his mind and decided not sell her (I couldn't blame him). He would lease her, but only at his facility, which made the whole notion pointless.
by DDRshep on 17 March 2010 - 01:03
duke1965 Gina would be my favorite as well. Hanach looks excellent too (with very nice conformation and pigment). I think both these Jipo-Me girls are top class and one can have a top kennel using both as foundation bitches. I find these 2 girls just as impressive, if not more so, than some of the studs.
I think Bady with Hanach, and Ox with Gina, would be very interesting combinations.
I think Bady with Hanach, and Ox with Gina, would be very interesting combinations.
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