Fun with show toons - Page 11

If that's the case, why are you here trying to topic cop?

I disagree it is pointless.  I always learn something everytime a topic is revisited, and we've got to admit there is a problem here.

Do you have SL's Sid?

I am not attempting to 'topic cop', Donald. I am simply pointing out how ridiculous it is that the topic of WL vs SL be brought up every few months. I am glad you have the patience to argue it out, but I find it to be childish.

Yes, Red Sable, I do have SL's. And granted there might be a 'problem' with SL performance, however, WL's have problems of their own as well. I just choose not to argue about it. It's my opinion, and though factual, biased as well. 

Actually the problem I was referring to was these showlines getting titles they do not deserve.  They are touted as great, become breeding stock producing more garbage.  Not only that, they have huge breeding fees and their pups are sold for huge amounts  to unsuspecting people when they are worth no more than pet price.  It's like fraud.

If you know of WL's that are being pushed through the system that do not really deserve their SchH titles, please by all means start another thread and show us.

This thread is more than that though, it covers the area of good SL's too, so there is a plus. 
New people come to this board all the time, if nothing else, it will open their eyes and make them aware. 

I know good SL breeders on this board, ones I would trust, and they are the ones that are willling to discuss this and that admit there is a problem.  They would not breed dogs like those on the video, which is good for those looking for a good showline, don't you think?  How else does one really know?

RS, I think you are being fair, but I want to say that though WL GDSs may not have problem with passing Courage or Shutzhund they do have anatomical incorrectness such as long toes, splayed feet, non straight fore legs, turned out elbows, dipped backs, short upper arms, long muzzles, short croups, less front and rear angulation etc, I very much appreciate some WL dogs who are correct in work ability as well as structure such as Javir and Bomber and what I don't understand is why SL breeders did not use those two dogs and their likes more in their breedings !!

Ibrahim

Ibrahim, are your showlines correct in the areas you mentioned?  We won't agree on rear angulation(although are they cowhocked?) nor the back, so I'm not talking about that, but how about the eyes, (dark?) feet (tight?) front, (straight?) tail (does it hang correctly?) ears(strong?)

I can say my WGWL is strong in all those areas.

As for crossing two extremes, do the puppies come out in the golden middle or do you just end up with some more of each extreme?

I will full on admit there is a problem with some SL's receiving undeserved titles. A year or so ago I admitted on another thread that WL's are much better when it comes to drive - everyone is aware of this. My concern with them is the WL's switch. There is a good reason experienced homes are required for WL's, without proper training they become nothing short of neurotic. I've had working Border Collies before, and anyone that has had both breeds will vouch they are far more intense in drive. There is a lack of an off switch on alot of WL's. I've seen pictures of them relaxing at home - that's great. But that's lack of proof that they may be jumping up to get the ball for something to do a moment later. I commend the WL's for having a great drive and good scores, but I would take an SL over a WL anyday.

I think in general more show lines are closer to the the standard in regards to structure, and in general majority of work lines are closer to the standard in regards to character and work ability plus versatility. When there is a V rated WL stud of outstanding work ability it is a good chance for a show breeder to use such a stud to improve courage and work ability in his line without loosing much of his line's anatomy.
In regards to my dogs I think substance, vitality and protection instinct is much better in WLines but structural details are better in Showlines. Also coat of show line is much more beautiful.

Ibrahim

I could not stand a border collie.  They are neurotic. 

My dogs are nothing like them.  My dogs sit when I sit.  They do not chase children that run, nor do they look at them like prey, even if the child is screaching.  They do not touch anything they are not supposed to. The only thing that annoys me is as soon as I get up they are up too and in my face looking for something to do.  Of course when what I  have to do concerns them that doesn't annoy me, just when I am doing something else. ;)  but, everyones dog is like that is it not?  I've never had a dog more loyal than my female, ever! nor more protective. She is stuck to me like glue and ready to listen to my every command.  She is licky (which can be annoying) but seriously, I just think I am easily annoyed somedays.  However, I do wish they would walk instead of run everywhere, and I do think GSD's should be calmer, but it is my impression the showlines are just as energized; - and of course WL's have to be trained, but don't all dogs?


 Have you ever had a WL Sid? 

   I know there is junk in both lines but to say WL don't have an off switch is BS.

     Yes, Donald knows me well...lol...I think this thread is excellent...It has been civil and I am learning a lot too...I know that there have been other threads on the same topic, but something new can be learned every time it is hashed over again...It is also nice to have a fresh look at a topic every so often...Also, it is nice to be able to ask questions and that is not an option just reading through the older threads...

     I wish we had some videos of good show line protection work....

     I would love a Working line person to post a video of what would be considered one of the best V rated (GSD ) working line in the USA....Thanks....