Natural vs AI Breeding - Page 1

Wondering what everyone's opinion is on natural vs AI.  Oviously there are advantages and disadvantages to both but would like to see what everyone's opinion is.

My thoughts are its the 21st century.  I think the SV should allow AI breedings.  This would expand the use of the most demanded studs world wide.  Higher quality dogs could therefore be bred and it would improve the breed.  There are many high quality females residing outside Europe that should have the option to AI.  Each time a stud is collected sperm quality is checked which is also beneficial.  If dogs could be as high tech as other species of animals that strictly use AI, with use of high quality extenders several females could be bred off 1 collection from a stud.

I think all this would outweigh the worry that GSD's must maintain their ability to breed "naturally", I think their are other measures/steps that could be taken if this were threatened. 

It's not the ability to breed naturally that has to be maintained.  AI has a lower success rate than natural cover. When cattle breeders can't get a cow bred with AI they then throw them out with what's called a clean up bull to get them bred.

It's the resulting bottleneck of genetics that would result from everyone using the  few perceived select few top dogs.  Genetic diversity would wane and health problems would pop up faster and be harder to eradicate because of the smaller gene pool.  Think Cheetahs for a real world example

The Jockey association (racing thoroughbred horses) won't allow AI for that reason. 

I believe the SV allows AI if the stud is there but shipped semen is not.  Susie will know for sure.

Another libereal who wants to breed Art.if the dog can't breed on it's own than should not be bred.Very soon someone else will give an idea to breed two females to each other,or two males,oh you liberals you can screw everything up.Have a nice evening i have to be rested for the NASS.

I happen to agree with the OP. 

Matt(?)...How would AI change the already over breeding of the popular stud dog? Case in point..... AI is more expensive and not every BYB can afford the procedure required to implant the semen. The SV's stand point of not allowing shipped semen is based more on the lack of control they would have over where the semen is used (countries that do not impose the breeding restrictions). I can kind of understand that, even though it limits the gene pools to Europe (unless female is shipped over).

Jerzypawlik...why must you always post the most ridiculous comments? This person has a valid point. One that can be discussed and learned from. 

Many obstacles.

First, the SV will not allow any member to be involved with AI. It violates the FCI rules which the SV is a member. The AKC is allowed to do it as they are FCI by letter. Forget the German Semen idea.

Second, as pointed out earlier, your success rate is much less. Despite claims from multiple vets of 80% success, my practical experience since 2005 with multiple vets both as user and supplier is; fresh works if properly inserted, chilled and frozen are real long shots. I'm in the single digit percentages not that far from zero to the extent I don't consider it. There are simply too many variables in the process. It has to be collected, processed, shipped, received, prepared, female timed right, insearted correctly. Any hiccup in the process down to the wrong person signing for it, can screw up a process that's marginal when it's all done by one person to begin with. Do yourself a favor and just say no unless it's fresh and the female is standing right there and the vet knows how to inseminate.

I totally disagree with lower success rates. 

The show pig industry is dominated by AI.  99% of pig breeders use AI with very high success and they are not even veterinarians, they are just typical everyday farmers with no experience.  All they know how to do is what is important.  That is timing and keeping track of their females heat cycle. 

It is the same concept with inseminating a dog.  It is timing and keeping track of the heat cycle.  Even more technology is used in AI in dogs (progesterone testing) but people neglect the simple things and do not do it right. 

I think if it became a more comon practice in dogs like it is in livestock it would have more advantages than disadvantages. 

In the end, as in any business the most popular studs would be controlled by supply and demand.  Only the top females would be bred to these studs because the stud owners of the most popular males would demand the highest price.  It is irrelevant to say EVERYONE would breed to these studs because they simply would not be able to afford it based off of simple supply and demand concept, because they would be too costly for the everyday dog breeder to breed to.

Most breeders I know in other industries that's use AI have a "clean up bull" too.  They have a second, third, and fourth stud lined up incase 1 is not available.  

If it is the females fault in the breeding and she is that problematic cull her and just  keep as pet

You can disagree all you want with the success rate.doesn't change the facts. I was professionally trained and did AI with dairy cattle for years.  They teach that AI has a lower success rate than natural cover and when you track your conception rate you find it to be true. My conception rate was in the upper 80 percentile of AI breeders and I wasn't even close to what the beef guys with natural cover had for a rate.  When we had a cow that we couldn't settle after multiple attempts, we'd put her out with a bull and most of those settled under natural cover.

Your also wrong about the price point on semen. The law of supply and demand comes in.  I could cover a cow with an awesome bull for a hundred bucks a straw(breeding).  In the Arab horse world,AI is allowed and the stud fee for a good horse is around thousand, fifteen hundred.  I could've breed two houses to Afire Bey V for six grand and he's one of the top Arab sires of all time.  6k in the thoroughbred world is a drop in the bucket for a breeding.  AI increases the number of females covered and allows more to be covered so the per cost price to breed per animal unit dips.  Not to mention that all the people who couldn't afford to ship their dog can for much less money Fed ex semen and breed to the"top studs"

I,m wondering if many have had chilled or frozen flown from Europe and how many had sucess with it,Ive had sucess with fresh but never have used chilled or frozen and I hear the shelf life is greatly reduced on the last two,it also seems like a big mess with getting AKC done for any males used out of Europe.

This is a dog forum, not a cow forum.  In my actual experience, AI (even side by side!) has a much lower success rate but you have different variables like stress on the bitch if she doesn't like it, contamination, the experience and proficiency of the person collecting and then inseminating, etc.

I don't have a problem with it, but my male can breed normally and has great quality and count (he is 6).  If someone 2000 miles away really wants to use him and I really like the female and the pedigree, if they want to spend their money on shipping chilled semen, so be it. I would not use AI because a male can't or won't breed.