Natural vs AI Breeding - Page 2

VKGSDS well no DUH this is a dog forum.  It is also true that the relative use for AI is small in the dog world and much larger in the horse and cattle world.

Not my problem if you can't learn from the expericences of others.

I have lots of experience with show pigs.  Both in commercial and show pig production AI totally dominates and is the only type of breeding used.  

Maybe a vet can chime in, but I think AI in dogs is lagging way behind livestock.  Chilled semen is always used for pigs.  If the semen is stored at proper temperature and rotated properly you you can breed a sow 7-10 days after semen is collected (some have done longer) with larger litters than a natural breeding.  This is because the extenders are so awesome they use today.  Why can't they have extenders like this for dogs?

To breed to the most demanded boar today "sky's the limit" semen is $2k a dose and generally you need 2 doses.  Most semen ranges $300-$800 per dose however and is controlled by supply and demand.  Semen can be shipped internationally, but is mainly shipped in the continental US.

1BadLBZ true show pigs use predominately AI as do a lot of commercial breeders but there are also a lot of boars out there in the commercial lots doing clean up on the sows.  Chilled semen would be tough to ship internationally.  Frozen semen as used in the cattle industry is shipped worldwide.  Horses use chilled as well, the horse sperm don't survive the freeze thaw process which is true with hogs as well.

All shipped semen has some type of extender in it and the tech for that is constantly evolving.  I don't think it's a matter of can't with dogs, its a matter of economic scale.  I personally have bred over 2000 cows thru AI and I was a small guy on the scale.  THere are people who make their living going around AI'ing cattle.  They will do 1000/month.   How many dogs realistically are there to AI to fund the necessary research and development into the freezing and thawing process and the equipment that will be required for each.  How many AI's does your average vet do in a month? 

I think that the various breeds not allowing it and the lack of volume  results in a lack of economy of scale to make it profitable enough for the development.  Think how many pigs you breed in a year.  Can you come up with that many dogs that you know that would equal that number year after year?

That's interesting that it takes two straws to breed a hog.  Never done hog AI.  I've taken a straw for cattle and split it between two cows and had both come up preg.  Horses they ship a really high volume compared to the other species and we'vve split that up and bred the same mare at two different points depending on the ultra sound.

Ya, you can get a hog bred with 1 dose, but only if your timing is 100% correct.  They usually recommend 2 doses done at 12-24hr intervals apart depending if it is a gilt/sow. 

I think their would be a huge demand at least in North America if your females could get AI'd with a stud that lives in Germany.  Even people that live in different countries in Europe could then AI their dogs and not have to drive their female to Germany to breed it.  If they could ship dog semen with the same quality of extenders they use for pig semen I think it could work.   

Hey guys,

The pig breeding sounds great. If it works for pigs it's gotta work for dogs right?

There's a bunch of good dogs in Europe. How do you think the semen could get here?

VKGSDS well no DUH this is a dog forum.  It is also true that the relative use for AI is small in the dog world and much larger in the horse and cattle world.

Not my problem if you can't learn from the expericences of others.

So how does experience with cattle AI translate into better success rates for dogs? If the extenders are different, why wouldn't it make sense that one species has a very different success rate than the other?  IMO it's apples and oranges. My experience doing AI with dogs (and the experience of my breeding mentors and friends) is that the success rate has always been much, much lower than natural cover.

Personally, I think GSDs as a breed (not dogs as a species) have a lower success rate with AI. I have no idea why that is but have talked to many GSD and dog breeders who have tied AI who also believe this to be true. The last person I talked to had attempted 7 AIs with GSDs, all different stud/bitch combinations using studs and bitches that otherwise have produced, and 0 took (I realize this is a small number compared to livestock, but that's a decently high number for a non-commercial GSD breeder). I know of other dog breeds where AI is very much encouraged if not the norm and they do not seem to have the low success rates like there are with GSDs. My own experience doing AI with a dog that is completely health reproductively and otherwise produce 12 puppies with a maiden bitch (two ties, no help) is that the AI just hasn't worked (extended semen and side by side).

I would agree that the lack of demand probably contribues to a lack of development or vets with enough experience to have high success rates (or, the vets that do charge like crazy, the vet near me with a high success rate charges $300 for AI while my usual vet charges $58), but that begs the question, should it be allowed or encouraged with dogs?  Personally I think males that will not or cannot breed and females that cannot be bred should NOT be bred.

I had a friend whose bitch wouldn`t stand for the stud. She`d actually try to nail him if he tried. She tried AI done by a local vet who had experience with farm animals, but not so much with dogs. I think at least one other vet did AI for the bitch as well. The male was present for collection, and an extender was used. It didn`t work.

She then paid big bucks to take the bitch to the veterinary clinic at the University of Guelph. Both times she did that, the AI was successful. They had a camera probe so they could see the semen went exactly where it needed to be.

From that experience, I would say experince has a lot to do with success rate. During the time she was breeding this bitch, she found out the vast majority of vets in Ontario have ZERO experience with canine reproduction, whether it`s AI or dealing with the whelping of a litter!

Right, most vets don't.  If it's really important, go to a reproductive specialist.  I have done two shipped collections with my male (because of distance, not issues standing or breeding, one female a proven producer) and use a reproductive vet.  It costs a lot more, but this is basically all this vet does.  Neither took, but I can't speak for what happened on the other end.  The semen is always examined and evaluated before it goes out.

A big problem, even with the repro vets is the heavy reliance on progesterone testing.  It's a good indicator but to know you HAVE to do the LH test as well.  Most don't.  We have a repro vet here in Madison that I argued this with a few years back.  The bitch owner listened to the vet and no puppies.  If we AI, we do the LH and do mulitple covers and have never missed using a regular vet for the AI.  If the stud is there, we do NOT use extenders.  No reason for them and actually several reasons not to use them if the stud is right there with the bitch and it's a fresh collection. 

VKGSDS,

It's the correlation that's relevant.  In all species done so far, AI has a lower success rate than natural cover. 

It gets better with research(aka MONEY) but it still doesn't hit the same level as natural cover.  It may some day, but not yet.