Best Working line German Shepherd breeder of the Decade? - Page 8

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by ValK on 13 September 2021 - 23:09

Rik
"so valk, getting back to the topic, who is your recommendation for best WL breeder in last decade?"

none of private breeders. albeit some of them do breed dogs i like, some don't have dogs to my liking but as a breeders they are sincerely dedicated to breed and seems trustworthy people. but all, without exceptions, breed dogs for SALE and can't ignore main market trends and demands. among there could be dogs suitable for work but what a chance and at what ratio per litter.

anyway one won't argue that to recognize working dog one need to see that dog in work. i'm not a breeder and really don't have such necessity/luxury to travel for that purpose :)

but i can name few places they breed dogs for work (without any doubt) because those dogs for their own foreseen use:
RCMP breeding/training facility in Alberta.
od Policie Ceske Republik
Policia Slovakia

could be others similar somewhere just i don't know about.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 September 2021 - 02:09

Um, well, nearly half of 40-odd Police Forces + the RAF [+ some parts of the Prison Service I think] which breed some of their own dogs for their own intended use in the UK ...

by ValK on 14 September 2021 - 09:09

Hundmutter
all, mentioned by you, definitely have training programs to certify dogs but not necessarily have breeding programs.
perhaps duke as one, who supply dogs to LE, should know who and what have.
beside military/LE there are other institutions who need service dogs for more civil/peaceful purpose but i haven't heard of them having own breeding programs. use of GSDs in role S&R, assistant dogs, guide dogs by those institutions obviously in decline albeit all GSD breeders in promotions do claim their breeding produces jacks of all trades good for anything.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 14 September 2021 - 13:09

but all, without exceptions, breed dogs for SALE and can't ignore main market trends and demands. among there could be dogs suitable for work but what a chance and at what ratio per litter.
 

 

Not all breeders. There are breeders out there that don't care about trends and demands. That hold back entire litters to see what they get out of certain type of breedings. There are preservation breeders that legitimately do not care about whether or not they sell a dog. That being said, those are also the same people that are chronically broke.  LOL


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 September 2021 - 13:09

Oh ValK, of course there are UK Police breeding programmes. Duke may know a lot, but I never heard him deny that the UK has its own facilities for breeding Police Dogs, even though, yes, some Forces may have at times bought dogs from him ( or elsewhere, on occasion). Many more dogs are used than just the imported ones ! Some have continuous lineage going way back, to v. Lierberg dogs, and others.  More like the UK just getting overlooked by Americans and their contacts, once again. (Over the years, I have had eyes and hands on some litters of puppies; and I regularly see Kennel Club Registrations of same, so I know they exist.)

As to other uses of the breed: Guide Dogs Association still uses its own and related GSDs for either purebred or Retriever crosses, to produce up to about a quarter of dogs bred to be partners to blind & partially sighted people. (The rest are usually Labradors and pure Goldens). There is also a GSD-only organisation now training dogs as 'seeing eyes', it is called Pathfinders and so far only has a few dogs, being bred by regular GSD [WGSL at that] breeders for them, as it is not of a size to have its own breeding centre.

I do not think there are any other Assistance Dogs programmes here that are breed specific, (ANY breed); nor S&R. I agree the sheer numbers of GSD have dropped, in all of these fields, but that is as much a reflection of a more general and long-term trend towards Collies and other breeds, and away from Shepherds.


by GSCat on 15 September 2021 - 03:09

by Hundmutter on 14 September 2021 - 13:09

Oh ValK, of course there are UK Police breeding programmes. Duke may know a lot, but I never heard him deny that the UK has its own facilities for breeding Police Dogs, even though, yes, some Forces may have at times bought dogs from him ( or elsewhere, on occasion). Many more dogs are used than just the imported ones ! Some have continuous lineage going way back, to v. Lierberg dogs, and others.  More like the UK just getting overlooked by Americans and their contacts, once again. (Over the years, I have had eyes and hands on some litters of puppies; and I regularly see Kennel Club Registrations of same, so I know they exist.)

As to other uses of the breed: Guide Dogs Association still uses its own and related GSDs for either purebred or Retriever crosses, to produce up to about a quarter of dogs bred to be partners to blind & partially sighted people. (The rest are usually Labradors and pure Goldens). There is also a GSD-only organisation now training dogs as 'seeing eyes', it is called Pathfinders and so far only has a few dogs, being bred by regular GSD [WGSL at that] breeders for them, as it is not of a size to have its own breeding centre.

I do not think there are any other Assistance Dogs programmes here that are breed specific, (ANY breed); nor S&R. I agree the sheer numbers of GSD have dropped, in all of these fields, but that is as much a reflection of a more general and long-term trend towards Collies and other breeds, and away from Shepherds.

 

Part of the problem is there is such a proliferation of military, law enforcement, and security demands for GSD, many of which will pay a pretty penny for suitable dogs, that organizations that procure, train, and provide guide dogs to blind, therapy dogs, medical service dogs, SAR, etc., which are often charities and nonprofits, are forced to other breeds due to cost and availability.  Cost and availablility are also driving some law enforcement to other breeds, such as Malinois and labs.

Another part of the problem is the insurance industry charging higher premiums for liabiity for some breeds, or refusing to insure at all, and people in need of such dogs will go to organizations that have non-GSD PC dogs.  Since labs, etc. are not generally an issue with insurance companies, are PC, and are very trainable and capable in these roles, they became very popular.

The needs of the individual needing the dog will influence which breed is selcted.  Tasks performed by a seeing eye dog are very different than tasks performed by a psychiatric service dog, a dog for an active Veteran will be different than a dog for a child or an elderly person, etc, etc., etc..

 

I think service dog organizations in the U.S. may be more likely to breed their own than elsewhere.  These are two that I know of:

Guide Dogs of America has its own breeding program (labs, goldens and GSD)

Seeing Eye also has its own breeding program (labs, retrievers, and GSD)

 

Pawsitively Service Digs doesn't breed its own, but they have an interesting description of the type of dog they look for

 

A 1983 survey asked owners, breeders, trainers, and judges their opinions about breeds and behavioral traits. They divided breeds into seven clusters, only one of which is appropriate for Service Dog work

Cluster 5 (but only good for Pawsitivly if an individual dog can be found who is low energy) Low reactivity, high trainability, low aggressiveness: Retriever (Labrador, Golden), Newfoundland, Collie. Others in this cluster (but usually way too high-energy): German Shorthaired Pointer, Vizla, Brittany Spaniel, Keeshond, Australian Sheepdog.

https://www.pawsitivityservicedogs.com/breeds

 

 


Rik

by Rik on 15 September 2021 - 09:09

cat, maybe I'm mistaken but thinking the shift to other breeds in seeing eye started quite a few years ago.

there used to be a 4-H program in the U.S. where prospective pups were placed with school kids and raised up till suitability could be determined. don't know if this still happens.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 15 September 2021 - 13:09

Rik - you are correct, certainly did re UK Guide Dogs. The situation has been pretty much only a 1/4 or so of output being GSDs for as long as I can remember (so back to the 1960s); the originals here back in the early days (1930s or earlier ?) were all GSDs, as with the American version, but here the Labrador Retriever (and later the Goldens, and others) became always felt temperamentally more suitable, from not long after that. Partly just less 'scary' to the public, through GSDs other uses (Police, Prisons, Forces, etc) - but we have to recall that this was ALSO in a period when our journalists used to play up a lot of scare stories about the GSD breed. WWII hang-over ? [They did the same snow-job on our breed that they later did on Rottweilers and APBTs - but more intensely & for longer !]  And yes partly through the energy level, although you'd be hard put to see that now because the majority of GSDs they still have & choose are much quieter characters than I imagine those first ones were. Because they have selectively bred their own, or been very choosy as to those bought in or donated by breeders. They continue to produce a few, as I've said often crossed with Golden Retrievers as they find this a pretty suitable style of dog, but also achnowledging some people need a taller dog or one with a longer stride, to suit their own physique. And some just prefer the breed.  There is a shortage though - and I believe Pathfinders was set up to begin to try to address this.

 


by ValK on 15 September 2021 - 15:09

Baerenfangs Erbe
"There are breeders out there that don't care about trends and demands"

right, perhaps such people exist but
1. how many of them and how many dogs they produce to have even any impact on overall trends in breed?
2. how sure you are that all such people breed their dogs with goal for utilization at certain type of work, not just another bunch to be a lovely family pets?
jack of all trades may apply to breed in general but not to a particular dog. from my own observation and experience i learned that breeding, narrowed to a certain purpose of utilization of dogs is more effective in its output. mating which did produce half of litter to be rejected was viewed as unsuccessful and never repeated.
today if litter produces 1-2 dogs good for real work, mating considered to be a great one.

Hundmutter
"Oh ValK, of course there are UK Police breeding programmes"

good to know. do you have any references to confirm this?
don't know why but after reading your reply come to mind one video i saw some time ago named "police dog Pluto in hot pursuit" or something like that :)

GSCat
"Part of the problem is there is such a proliferation of military, law enforcement, and security demands for GSD, many of which will pay a pretty penny for suitable dogs, that organizations that procure, train, and provide guide dogs to blind, therapy dogs, medical service dogs, SAR, etc., which are often charities and nonprofits, are forced to other breeds due to cost and availability."

but those institutions do have problems to find suitable dogs as well.
even duke in here quite often expresses his frustration about hardship to locate dogs meeting the requirements of LE.
also you should keep in mind that the dog for LE is absolutely different kind that the guide dog and there aren't competition on the market between these organizations.

Rik
"there used to be a 4-H program in the U.S. where prospective pups were placed with school kids and raised up till suitability could be determined."

that's a best and most efficient way but i doubt its can be applied in commercial breeding.

by johan77 on 15 September 2021 - 17:09

Valk, isn´t obvious if a breeder has the goal of producing dogs for real work based on the dogs they use in breedings and prior sucess in doing so? I know breeders who delivered lot´s of dogs to serve in police/military/security and if they should be able to do that they can´t have pets or only sport as goal. Some breeders produce dogs both for sport and real work in the same litter so it´s not so easy to say all sportdogs produce "only" sportdogs either if you say you can´t find a private/civilian breeder who breeds to your ideal. Speaking of police/military breedingprogram those dogs are produced not for the civilian market I suppose so not so intressting for those not working with dogs as their profession, had a very long such breedingprogram here in sweden who started in the 30s and ended in mid 90s and started again in 2005 for military/policedogs, found one pedigree of the old program who must have been one of the last generations they breed before they shut that down,

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=424207-hs-9539-idex?_v=20110401202440






 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top