Which breed makes the best working dog for detection and protection work? - Page 5

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by ValK on 02 May 2021 - 12:05

"generally speaking GSD, but comes down to the individual dog, simple as that"

quantity of individual dogs with desirable qualities absolutely depend onto matching individuals, used for mating.
since establishing, and in comparison to others, GS did bring to table the physical and mental qualities, which did make breed a perfect candidate for multipurpose usage be it detection, guarding, protection or helper-dog.
tough selection and matching approach lasted until mass market commercial aspect enter the scene.
let's be honest - today's matching of individual dogs for mating typically are wrong or absent at all.
that has huge impact on the breed itself and big time contributes to decline of the GS breed overall.
an experiments to cross GS dogs with other breeds to restore desirable qualities not really effective at the end.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 03 May 2021 - 05:05

GK1, every handler wants to think that their dog will engage that first time they are called upon to do so. Reality, however, may be different. I know several dogs that would not do it in real life and had an early retirement.
I know a few that did not engage the first 3-4 times they could, but, ended up being a real beast once they got the hint.
Now, that could be a dog issue or a handler issue, but, it brings me back to my way of thinking when I say that until I see a dog bite, in real life, on the street, a guy with a short sleeve shirt and shorts on, that dog does not yet bite, in my opinion.
In the last 41 years, I have seen only a handful of dogs that I thought would bite for sure, just by looking at them...but, that was not a compliment. ALL of them lacked a full deck of cards, their elevator did not reach the top floor.
My first Malinois was one of those dogs, but, he clearly had a ton of issues in his head, yet, he was more than happy to engage anyone you want, including the handler if he thought he was deserving.
Another was a GS that belonged to a friend of mine. That dog had a blanc stare, I mean zero animation in his eyes every time I saw him. Excited, pissed, working, relaxing, same look in his eyes, but, very willing to bite anyone.
I knew he had issues and so did my friend who worked him for a few years on the street.

The point that I am trying to make is that if you want a dog that is willing to bite anyone at anytime and do so not out of prey/play drive, you need to be ready to deal with a host of other temperament problems that you may not want to.
Its a tough exchange, something stable that may not engage, or, something not right in the head that will.
Malinois, most of them, are not right in the head, that is a fact. Be it over the top prey drive or over the top civil aggression, it does not come from a clear headed place, yet, those dogs will bite.
At the end of the day, I am not sure, personally, if I want to live with a dog that is so iffy in the head that I need to be concerned for my safety or that of my family's, but, I know it will engage, or, I want to take my chances.

by astrovan2487 on 03 May 2021 - 06:05

Most people dont want to accept it but humans are by far the most dangerous animals on earth. I'd think it would take a little bit of a nut job of a dog to actually choose to fight one posing a threat if there was a chance to avoid it.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 03 May 2021 - 07:05

Astrovan, humans are dangerous because we are able to think and use resources in ways that other animals cannot, but, I am certain that if those other animals could, they would too.
You are correct about your other assertion though, the dog has to be either extremely brave or a nut job to choose to fight, but, in this context, nut job and brave I believe come from the same place...something is not right upstairs.

GK1

by GK1 on 03 May 2021 - 09:05

100% guaranteed - unless you are a cat, rodent or foolish dog, you will not get bit by my red coat, red nose, amber eyed APBT.

by ValK on 03 May 2021 - 10:05

in society, i come from, dog's bite never been newsworthy story. all private dwellings are fenced and in 90% did have a chained watchdog.
those mutts without doubt will bite stranger who enter their territory, irregardless how he/she dressed. they weren't any special selection and didn't have training.
sole their purpose from generation to generation was to be watchdogs and protection of own territory was deeply embedded in their nature. dogs with friendly to human attitude never been a goal. thus if such individuals appeared, they won't last for long. overall it was a centuries of nearly natural selection for narrow utilization, which did work for what it was intentended.
i'm sure similar conditions was in the West as well, 'till grotesque trend for "overcivilization" kicked in.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 03 May 2021 - 11:05

Valk, I come from a place where in the country, dogs were kept on chains and their job was to protect their property.
My Godfather who lived in the country and was a farmer his whole life kept such dogs, mostly free because there were about 300 people in his village and everyone knew to stay off other peoples property.
Those dogs would bite, I believe, although not entirely sure of course, but, again, the question is why they would...I seriously doubt that it was because they were clear in the head or because they had any other value than a guard dog.

I remember going to visit for a week in the summer sometimes and he would always tell me to stay away from that dog who he chained during my visits when I was about 7 years old.
The question here is why do they bite, where does that will to do so come from? Yes, dogs who could not work, were not kept around too long, but, again, the why.
Also, keep in mind that those mutts were all outside dogs who never seen the inside of a house, a car or a city..

We have been breeding dogs for centuries and we have asked them to do things for us that are unnatural to them. Bring back a dead animal for us to eat, herd sheep or cows, protect sheep or cows instead of eat sheep or cows or the dead animal they brought back and on and on.
The one trend that I see is that bite work, the type of a dog that is always willing to engage no matter what or who, is on dogs that are not all there in the head. Now, that may make no difference to someone whose entire interaction with that dog is throwing some scraps to it every so often and it lives its life tied up, but, when you live with the dog in the house, when you spend 10 hours a day driving around with that dog, it makes a huge difference.

As far as that grotesque trend for civilization, I am sure you are reaping its benefits, just like I am right now and I for one really like it. I like the fact that I can go to the hospital and I can be put under to have a procedure instead of, "here, bite this really hard" like 100 years a go.
Yes, as a society, we have become soft and our dogs had to follow that trend, but, I cannot see how else it would play out either.

by Klossbruhe on 03 May 2021 - 14:05

After reading some previous posters talking about that only a dog which was not Klar in Kopf (clear in the head) as the Germans like to say, would bite or attack under any circumstances, I thought I would add this.

In considering the question "What is the purpose of life?" putting aside religion or philosophy, and only considering biology, the purpose of life is to pass on your DNA. Taking that as a given, as they say in geometry, what options does a smaller animal have when it perceives a threat from a bigger animal such as a dog encountering a man. There are three--freeze, flight and fight. Let us consider these options.

Freezing is used by deer and certain other animals as a defense against animals which primarily hunt by sight and movement. It can be a useful option, however, it is not the best option for obvious reasons as many predators, such as man and bears, are not fooled by this technique.

Flight is probably the best option for dogs surviving and living to pass on their DNA. Most dogs can outrun any man. So a dog which does not choose this option, from a biological standpoint is not making a smart choice.

Fighting is a better option than freezing, but certainly not as good an option as flight because the larger animal has a better chance of killing the smaller animal. Normal dogs who are clear in the head and who would normally choose flight in wild, can obviously be trained to fight a man or bear. As a top German teaching helper once told me, "I can chase any dog off the field, but my job is to build the dog's confidence so it believes it can be victorious in a fight with me" Not every dog can be trained to this. It must have what some people call fight drive combined with prey drive. Without these, the only reason for a dog to fight a larger animal is the belief its life is threatened.

In conclusion, as previous posters have noted, a dog which will take on a larger animal, be it a man or bear without any training is either not clear in its head or else is acting in defense (misunderstood by most), i.e. the belief that its life depends on fighting off the threat and defense of territory is a subset of this defense drive.

Rik

by Rik on 03 May 2021 - 19:05

just another anecdote kinda related to what HD said.

when I was involved in club activities, the training director showed up with a B/R showline, approx 2-3 yo. he said the dog had gone off and chewed up his elderly owner, who was sitting in a chair at the time. If I remember correctly, he was able to get the dog before it was put down.

no info other than the lady had had the dog from a pup, no idea if she stepped on the dog or otherwise maybe brought about/contributed to the incident and wasn't there to see how far he took the dog in training.

as HD said, just looking at this dog, any sensible person would know it was deluded/dangerous, just from the way it looked back.

as always,
a wealth of useless info,

Rik

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 03 May 2021 - 19:05

Rik, your experience is wealth my friend...it is not useless info. It is a lifetime accumulation that those who are interested in learning should listen to.





 


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